Sevan Matossian (00:00):
That is beautiful. ba That is cool.
Paul Litchfield (00:04):
Thanks man. Thank you very much.
Sevan Matossian (00:06):
Paul. What’s up dude, I’m sev, nice to meet you. Thanks for Jim. Hey, Sev,
Paul Litchfield (00:09):
Nice to meet you. I’ve seen you virtually on all your podcasts.
Sevan Matossian (00:13):
Awesome. Look at that room. Where are we looking? That’s cool. So
Paul Litchfield (00:16):
This is my barn that is in Massachusetts. So basically I’ve got a, I live in Massachusetts. GORUCK is down in Florida, and I work out of the barn here. I got all of my, I give you a little brief. I got every GORUCK article of footwear that we’ve made, created what we’re developing and all that. That’s just where I work here because I’m too old to move back down to Florida or anything.
Sevan Matossian (00:54):
Hey, I don’t know how old you are. I was born in 72, but doesn’t Florida sound good to you? So you don’t ever have to do winters? As I get older, I don’t want to do winters.
Paul Litchfield (01:05):
No brother. For me, I was born and raised in Boston and spent, I did my grown up here. So for me, the winter’s fine.
Sevan Matossian (01:14):
And you guys are a different breed there. Boston, Massachusetts, people are tough. Huh? You guys are tough.
Paul Litchfield (01:19):
I dunno about tough, but we are resilient.
Sevan Matossian (01:24):
They slap other babies in the butt. They punch you guys in the face.
Paul Litchfield (01:27):
Yeah. Did you see my nose? Yeah, that’s what I learned.
Sevan Matossian (01:32):
Did you get into a good, good fight? Did that to you?
Paul Litchfield (01:34):
I used to box a little bit.
Sevan Matossian (01:36):
And you did power lifting too, right?
Paul Litchfield (01:38):
Yes, I did. Yeah.
Sevan Matossian (01:39):
Hey, tell me, how did you get into boxing? I know this is, by the way, for anyone who doesn’t know this is the head of product over at goruck, but that’s his most recent position. He’s been everywhere in the shoe world. He was at our beloved Reebok, who was around in the early days of CrossFit with the nano two. But his claim to fame there was the Reebok pump, and then Paul was also the head of product over at Puma.
Paul Litchfield (02:08):
Yeah, I was president of Puma for a little brief cup of coffee. I left Reebok when we weren’t seeing eye to eye in late 97, early 98. I stayed there for a little bit and then had a chance to come back to, for a host of reasons, had a chance to come back to Reebok when it was needing to refocus back in 2000. So I came back in 2000 and stayed there until 15.
Sevan Matossian (02:33):
Okay, we’ll get to that. But I wanted to, tell me about boxing. How did you get into boxing?
Paul Litchfield (02:38):
That’s one of the ways you worked out back in the day. And I used to go down the Y and boxing just kid stuff and I enjoyed it. So
Sevan Matossian (02:49):
Did you like fighting?
Paul Litchfield (02:51):
Yeah.
Sevan Matossian (02:52):
You did fighting from a young age.
Paul Litchfield (02:54):
Oh yeah. Yeah. So me and my brother, we kind of came out that way. My brother’s a couple years younger than me, and I’m 63, so I’m a little bit older than you boys.
Sevan Matossian (03:05):
So I’m 72. So you’re basically 60?
Paul Litchfield (03:09):
I’m 60, yeah. I’ll be 64 in the fall.
Sevan Matossian (03:14):
God, and you keep reinventing yourself is going to goruck reinventing a guy who came from Reebok.
Paul Litchfield (03:21):
So in some ways yes, but in other ways and fundamentally, no, not at all. And I had been in research, so my background’s in biochem as an undergrad. Then I did a nutritional biochem, and then I got my master’s and worked on my PhD, which I never completed in muscle physiology and performance. And that’s when I was doing a lot of power lifting and Olympic lifting and strength was a big deal back in the days right after pumping iron and stuff like that. The world of strength and performance, it was not as mainstream as it is with CrossFit and some of the fitness things these days. So we did a bunch of stuff. I did a lot of work trying to understand how the body works, how muscles work, how you get stronger, what occurs, and things like that. That was my focus.
Sevan Matossian (04:27):
So you wanted Go ahead. Go ahead, sorry.
Paul Litchfield (04:29):
And then basically I abruptly left the PhD program. Long story, not for this podcast, but
Sevan Matossian (04:36):
Looking, did you sleep with a teacher? Did you sleep with a teacher?
Paul Litchfield (04:39):
No, no. Basically I wouldn’t embezzle money for a guy. So yeah, a whole different thing. So basically I just said no, and at the time I was a firefighter and my wife and I kind of were up in Amherst, mass doing stuff. And I had a chance actually to go down yours here of Florida at Gainesville to finish my PhD with actually the original phys ed building down there in Florida. It is right outside the Gainesville football stadium, and it was chock full of gear and research equipment that was being funded by Nautilus. Remember Nautilus?
Sevan Matossian (05:22):
I do.
Paul Litchfield (05:24):
So they wanted me to do strength research. That was my kind of focus. And ultimately, I actually took an interview with a small company in Boston that was working on, that was doing sporting good stuff called Reebok.
Sevan Matossian (05:37):
How small was small at the time.
Paul Litchfield (05:39):
We were 55 million when I joined, and I was the sixth person in the r and d department. I was what’s called a developer, researcher. Developer. And we had three designers and myself and two other buddies that I worked with and started making shoes. And I found out I had a little bit of an aptitude for that based on my side.
Sevan Matossian (06:07):
Paul, sorry, I’m going to interrupt you. Sorry, before we get too far ahead in the story, you’re in Gainesville, how did you Oh
Paul Litchfield (06:13):
No, I was in Boston. No,
Sevan Matossian (06:15):
But when you saw the job opportunity, you were in Gainesville, right? For Reebok? No, no. I was, how do you hear about a job in, it was 1985. Yeah. How do you hear about a job? Are you flipping through the newspaper and you say shoe developer and what makes you think you’re qualified to do it? I mean, now clearly you found the right job, but how do you know in 1985 that you can develop shoes? How do you get that job? Someone tells you? How do you know?
Paul Litchfield (06:41):
No, honestly, seven. It is a complete Forest Gump thing. Okay. So basically what happened was I had spent some time out, I had spent some time out in England, I’m sorry, in Scotland, and I was doing research on human performance, and I was working at a place called the Institute for Offshore and Environmental Medicine, doing all kinds of really kind of wacky kind of human performance work. And also I got funded by Nike to work to look at their Columbia air cushioned shoes to look at muscle damage and things of that long story. Anyways, out of grad school at UMass, UMass was a really well known in exercise science, and there was a bunch of folks that worked in the sneaker business at the time, and mainly out of Nike because Nike was the
Sevan Matossian (07:34):
Big dog. Was that the Silicon Valley of shoes? Was Massachusetts really? It was for the United States. It was kind of the hub of shoe stuff.
Paul Litchfield (07:41):
So I did my undergrad at University of New Hampshire, and I used to go over on Tuesday and Thursday afternoons and worked for a couple of classes. We had worked as a research assistant at Nike Exeter where they were doing all kinds, that was the mecca of footwear development and research and all that. That’s where at the time the director of research was this guy Tom Clark, who became CEO of Nike for the longest time. And there is a, who’s who in the footwear business came out of Nike, Exeter. And so again, that was a moment in time. I had no intention of going into the business through a mutual friend. I got contacted, they said, Hey, you want to come down and interview for Reebok? And quite frankly, I was like, no, I was going to be. And so then what happened was I went down and interviewed and hit it off with these guys and we were hanging out and we had the interview, then we did some working out and we basically finished up with some pizza and beer that night. And I’m like, Hey, thanks for doing this. And they go, oh no, no, that’s fine. We do this all the time. And I’m like, no, I get it. But
Sevan Matossian (09:01):
That’s good old day shit.
Paul Litchfield (09:02):
Yeah, no, this is old school stuff. And as a matter of fact, from an OG perspective, I listened to your podcast podcast with Jimmy and you guys were OG CrossFit. I was lucky to be kind of OG Reebok. And so back in the day, it was a really small little team and it caught on. And I found that in my chemistry background, I could work with the material folks, the DuPonts, the Dows, the Goodyear people and things. I understood what those
Sevan Matossian (09:36):
Engineers, what shoes were you wearing in your interview?
Paul Litchfield (09:39):
Oh shit. I don’t know. Probably Adidas. I had an uncle who used to sell for Adidas way back in the day, and that was like, I was probably wearing Oregons or SL 70 twos or something. So
Sevan Matossian (09:50):
You didn’t try to run out and get Reebok to kiss their ass or something? No.
Paul Litchfield (09:56):
Well, first of all, I couldn’t afford it. Second of all, Reebok, at the time, they were making just some track and field shoes, specialty shoes made out of Bolton England. And then they had just launched this shoe called the Freestyle, which was the first women’s shoe for aerobics. And at the time, I mean, it’s not a silly shoe, but it’s a casual shoe now, but it was kind of state-of-the-art back then. Right. So it just wasn’t my shtick. I ended up,
Sevan Matossian (10:30):
Oh, I remember that shoe. Oh
Paul Litchfield (10:31):
Yeah. Oh yeah,
Sevan Matossian (10:32):
Yeah. My mom had those. Yeah,
Paul Litchfield (10:35):
Dude, by the way, is this Sergio in the background doing this
Sevan Matossian (10:37):
Stuff? I call him Caleb, but he wouldn’t care if you called him Sergio. Sorry. Sorry, Caleb. He looks like a young version of you, dude. He looks like a young version of you.
Paul Litchfield (10:46):
Yeah, dude. I don’t know if I wish that on anybody.
Sevan Matossian (10:48):
I don’t, but it’s the facts.
Paul Litchfield (10:50):
Yeah, no, that’s very cool. Well, no, that’s a good play, Caleb. Yeah, so that shoe there.
Sevan Matossian (10:57):
Okay, so you go in there. Do you remember the workout you did with those guys?
Paul Litchfield (11:02):
Yeah, we just did some lifting back and they had a little gym, a little homemade gym in the lab area. We went for a run, came back and it was just hanging out.
Sevan Matossian (11:13):
Did you do bench press, pullups, all that fun, the dude stuff?
Paul Litchfield (11:17):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was back during the old school workouts and
Sevan Matossian (11:23):
Running. So back in the eighties when we worked out, and I know you did bench and tries, and then you did back and buys and you never did legs, but for the fact that you guys went on a run together that was kind of ahead of its time to go out running with some
Paul Litchfield (11:39):
Guys. Oh yeah. But you got to understand Reebok, the folks that were working at Reebok, they were all legit runners. They’re all pencil necks. This was during the seventies, eighties running boom. So running the thing, we’d go out and I did my fat man waddle back in the day and just hung with them and hung out. But to me, the interesting point was that when we were finishing up, it was just, I had known a couple of the guys and through grad school and stuff, and it was just a great vibe. It was a really cool vibe. And it sounded similar to what you guys experienced back in the early days.
Sevan Matossian (12:22):
I did many a hungover workout in a hotel room at seven in the morning with Jimmy Letford. Many, many, many. So if you’ve never, what is the first position you have? So we know that you’re a smart guy and you went to college and you got a master’s and started a PhD program, and you knew about human movement, that was your specialty. And you had done some research, so you knew how to do research and you were interested in materials. I interrupted you when you started talking about materials, but when they bring you on, are you like, dude, I don’t know how to make a shoe. I mean, did you start getting into the philosophy of what shoes are even for what’s day one?
Paul Litchfield (13:00):
So day one is all that and seven, to be honest with you, what I always tell people is that going into the shoe business, it’s essentially you apply principles of knowledge, you apply your background and stuff, and it’s not like you’re going in to get your civil engineering certificate or mechanical engineering, essentially it’s an acquired skill set of skills. So you apply your background and you learn how to do it, you learn how to put things together and all that. And I had, as it turns out, a little bit of an aptitude for that. And it worked out. And like I say, this was to me kind of the halon days of the sneaker business. It was the mid eighties going into the late eighties, and the aperture and the interest in the population in the world for sneakers, not only to wear for workouts, but also to wear around was really starting to kick up. And these days today, everybody races out to get their latest iPhone, their latest or Android or whatever. Well, back in the day, you didn’t have any of that. All you had was the moniker was what sneaker are you wearing?
Sevan Matossian (14:30):
That was how you stayed on the cutting edge, having the newest shoe
Paul Litchfield (14:33):
Without a doubt. And that’s how all the cool kids existed. But for me, the beauty was was that they used to call it technology. So basically my job was to create new items that would perform and behave in particular ways, depending upon what category it was running a basketball or tennis or pleaded or whatever it was. You wanted to make footwear that could hold up to the rigors of whatever athlete you were focusing on or whatever athletic population you’re focusing on.
Sevan Matossian (15:12):
So you get there in 1985, and there’s no program, college program on how to make shoes. So you’re basically on the job training and you’re just in a crash course. And they’re also wanting to pick your brain for what you know about the human body and materials. And you’re with this team of six, and what is the first shoe you start working on?
Paul Litchfield (15:41):
I worked on a bunch of basketball shoes that were already kind of in process and learned that. And so my first technology was this thing called the energy Return System, which was a series of tubes that would compress and spring back and blah, blah, blah. Looking back on it now, it looks like, I don’t know, elementary kind of stuff, right? But yeah, there you go, kid. Well done. Caleb, you’re good at this stuff.
Sevan Matossian (16:12):
When I went to Reebok headquarters, I got a retro pair of those. I don’t remember the soul looking like that, but I got a pair, I dunno, maybe 10 years ago that had that same color schematic.
Paul Litchfield (16:21):
Yeah, most certainly. That became one of our classics and all that. And so that was because of air, right? So Nike Air at the time was really kicking up. And Marion Rudy, he had done the airbags and that was really a big deal. So we did a different kind of approach
Sevan Matossian (16:43):
That was that Nike Air was the one I think I remember as a kid, you could see in the heel, they made it clear so you could see the air, whatever that means. Okay, wow. Okay.
Paul Litchfield (16:51):
Yeah. So we did that. And then the other thing, seven which happened was I basically got, I talked to my boss and this guy Lou Pone, and Lou basically had myself and my buddy Hugh. He gave us two tickets and they said, Hey, you’re going to Korea to basically live there and make shoes where we made shoes. So we went to Posan Korea, and that’s where I immersed myself in the process of really making shoes by working every day at factories, going to suppliers, going to mold shops and everything. So it became learning on the job. It was really, I was super lucky to have gotten in when I did get in in with the crew I got in with. And some of the stories that you kind of related with Jimmy and the work all day, do your thing at night, and then we’d always get up 5, 5 30 in the morning and we’d work out, regardless of when you get home, sometimes you get home just in time to put on your gear and you’d work out and then you’d make the bell at seven o’clock.
Sevan Matossian (18:09):
When did you start having your own desires, ideas for your own shoe? I’m guessing when you got there you’re like, okay, I’m going to get in where I fit in. I’m going to help them with everything they need. And was there a point when you’re like, Paul Litchfield, I got an idea for a shoe.
Paul Litchfield (18:25):
So I think the short answer is that that’s a little grandiose.
Sevan Matossian (18:33):
It is. Okay.
Paul Litchfield (18:34):
It doesn’t really work like that. What it
Sevan Matossian (18:36):
Is. Only Kanye has those ideas.
Paul Litchfield (18:38):
Yeah, I’ve worked with him and believe me, so seven for me. I mean,
Sevan Matossian (18:46):
Did you see the new Trump shoe? Did you see the new Trump shoe? I
Paul Litchfield (18:49):
Did,
Sevan Matossian (18:49):
Yeah. What do you think about the Trump shoe?
Paul Litchfield (18:52):
It’s gold.
Sevan Matossian (18:53):
It’s gold. Yeah. What is that? Is that a converse that they just painted up?
Paul Litchfield (18:59):
I don’t know. It looks like to me, I don’t know if you’d want to wear it in a basketball court.
Sevan Matossian (19:04):
Yeah, I saw $9,000 on eBay already.
Paul Litchfield (19:08):
Well, yeah, God bless all creatures. Great and small. And I’m not even talking about the guy. It’s just
Sevan Matossian (19:16):
Right. The shoe.
Paul Litchfield (19:17):
What the hell is that? Anyways, whatever.
Sevan Matossian (19:21):
Before I ask, okay, I know where we’re at. Let me go back one step. Did you start reading about shoes? What is a shoe? Is a shoe supposed to have? Is a shoe to protect your feet from getting cold or from something on tax? Or what is a shoe?
Paul Litchfield (19:36):
So a seven, that’s actually a great question because what I learned and what I continue to learn today, 39 years later, or 38 years later, no, 39, is that there are these different kind of disparate pockets that converge. Okay? I learned a lot about actual shoemaking from essentially the European traditional, classically educated shoemakers. And there’s all kinds of schools and things like the last, the shape that the footwear is designed around that converges with. And there’s a lot of old school standards that are well allegedly necessary for making a proper shoe, but then that meets head on with biomechanics and ergonomics and kinesiology and science and performance. And that needs to meet head on with material sciences, what’s available, what can you do, how can you make it? And then you got to meet head on with manufacturing. So I mean, to make a thing like you and I could go make us shoe, Caleb would help of course, and it’d flash it up on the screen, but it’s the kind of thing where we could do that. But how do you make something where you can make literally millions of them if you’re lucky? So manufacturing plays a big role in the execution of what people buy.
Sevan Matossian (21:13):
Let me dig into that question a little more. I’m a huge barefoot guy ever since I lost a pair of shoes in college and went bare, and I was homeless and I went barefoot for two years. And ever since then, I’ve been a barefoot guy. I was playing tennis with my son recently about a year ago. And I was playing barefoot. No, I wasn’t playing barefoot, sorry. I was playing in a pair of keen sandals, old man sandals. And I hurt my knee a little bit, and I’ve never hurt my knee in my 51 years because my foot was sliding around in the shoe a little bit, and I learned something. That was the first real thing I learned about shoes. And ever since then, I wear tennis shoes when I play tennis, and I strapped those fuckers on tight because it was that movement in the shoe.
(21:52):
So at that moment, I had an idea for me, I always thought shoes were kind of bullshit. Well, I know in tennis you have to wear shoes because when you’re running and you stop, you want to slide your foot and you need your shoe to be breaks. And then you also need the shoe to be tight. I’m just making this up, but you need the shoe to be tight so you don’t hurt your knee when you get there in 85. Is anyone like, Hey dude, we need shoes for, I mean, obviously it’s our job and to make money, but shoes are supposed to. And then when was there a, I’ve heard Glassman say the founder of CrossFit, all apparel should stay the fuck out of your way. Did you have a philosophy like this is the shoe should,
Paul Litchfield (22:30):
So here’s the philosophy that I use, and I’ve employed this with teams that I’ve worked with and stuff like that. And this is where getting onto goruck, which we’ll talk about in a little bit, but I love the place because our product needs to be transparent in its use, meaning you strap it on, it becomes part of you so that it’s not like this dangling thing, like a keen shoe slipping around.
Sevan Matossian (22:58):
He froze.
Paul Litchfield (23:00):
You got me?
Sevan Matossian (23:02):
Yeah. Okay, so start again. A shoe
Paul Litchfield (23:06):
Needs to be transparent in its use, meaning it needs to become part of you. It can’t be sliding around in a different direction or a different frequency or in a different vibration than your body when you hurt your knee. But it has to be apparent in its effectiveness, meaning this thing gives you the protection, the features, the benefits and the functionality that is required so that you can perform your best so that you can be on top of your game in whatever endeavor you’re doing, which is why you lace down a tennis shoe and it’s been constructed in such a way where it protects your foot so you can go all out.
Sevan Matossian (23:48):
And that’s consistent with what I heard you say in another podcast about being at goruck, which is a relatively small company, although it’s still big, but relatively small, meaning you like you’re not interested in a product that has a big product, you’re interested in a product that’s big in its impact, meaning it’s truly functional to the group that’s supposed to be wearing it. It has a huge impact on a sport or on a mission for a soldier or a basketball player. You’re interested in impact on the wearer.
Paul Litchfield (24:18):
Yes, most certainly. And to me, that’s the only litmus test. And when I’ll say shoes, which the
Sevan Matossian (24:26):
Trump shoe isn’t or the Kanye shoe isn’t, right? Well, maybe the Trump shoe is to sort of probably, it’s a propaganda shoe and the Kanye shoe is probably like a fashion shoe. And those are a different kind of impact. You’re talking about actual functionality for movement.
Paul Litchfield (24:41):
Yeah, no, absolutely. And Kanye’s designer, Steven is a good buddy of mine. That’s how I’ve worked with them way in the past. And Steven actually worked in my group at Reebok for a few years and that’s how I got to know him. So he, he’s is a full-on functional designer and he does Kanye shoes now. So to be fair to everybody, I believe passionately in the product that I’m able to participate in, and because we hold a certain standard, that being said, footwear is very personal. So there’ll be people who buy that gold shoe and love it good on them. And there’ll be people who buy the Kanye shoes and love it. Good on them. My obligation and my responsibility is to make sure whoever buys a GORUCK product has a positive experience from the effectiveness of the product. Now they may say, oh, I don’t like it, I don’t like it for this, for that. And that’s the tough part. That’s the thick skin part of being in product. People have opinions and they’ll be very open to give ’em to you.
Sevan Matossian (26:05):
And we’ll get to that because I’m crazy particular about the shoes that I wear. Crazy particular. So I want to go back how big I remember the pump. So clearly the two biggest shoes I remember as a kid, I always hear people talk about Jordan’s, but the two that I remember as a kid, the biggest shoes were the Reebok pump and those kangaroo shoes with the zipper. Oh yeah,
Paul Litchfield (26:28):
Sure. Absolutely.
Sevan Matossian (26:30):
And it was just crazy. All the cool kids had that. You either had the zipper or a pump. So can you tell me about how big was the pump? Was it massive?
Paul Litchfield (26:42):
It was huge. But to that point, and I thought based on our previous call, you might talk a little bit about it. Yeah. Okay, Caleb, I’m going to do you one better if you give me 10 seconds. Okay?
Sevan Matossian (26:55):
Yeah, yeah. Take your time. Take your time. I got to ask ’em, my shoes are pointy. I don’t understand why some shoes are pointy. Why do most shoes go to a point in the front? My feet don’t go to a point.
Paul Litchfield (27:06):
Alright, so here’s the deal, boys. The pump actually started looking like this. Alright, these are the two very first pump shoes ever made. All right.
Sevan Matossian (27:19):
Damn, those are so robust. They look like warrior shit.
Paul Litchfield (27:23):
Well, they’re falling apart now because materials degrade over time. So yeah. So this one here, actually, sorry, lemme do this in a way that’s appropriate. This one here actually has got a little dimmer valve put on it, and you could fill up the pump by stepping on it in the heel
Sevan Matossian (27:44):
Right there. Hey, how did it not just always pump up with every step then
Paul Litchfield (27:48):
It did. But what happened was with this little dimmer valve, you could essentially could set it so that it got to a certain pressure
Sevan Matossian (27:55):
And then if you overstepped on it, just pushed it out. Yeah.
Paul Litchfield (27:58):
Oh, that’s cool. I like it. That was awesome. And I thought so too. And then this one here, this one here we used, we had a little pump in the back here. I like it. A little shrader valve, a little kind of car tire valve, right? And I thought this one here was going to be, this was way before the pump. These weren’t even called the pump at the time.
Sevan Matossian (28:18):
So those never went to market those two shoes.
Paul Litchfield (28:20):
Oh, no, no, no. This set the agenda. So what happened was basically we did a bunch of testing with some junior college, small college folks around in the Boston area as well as with some high school kids and stuff. Basically I wanted to see what was going on, and I thought for sure this thing was the bomb, right? I’m like, this is the way to go. You just walk on it. It was automatic. Well, as it turns out, kids would sit on the bench and they’d pump up the back of their shoes and then they’d release. And so they started interacting with it. So it just
Sevan Matossian (28:53):
Became, and it would make that sound right, that Oh yeah, yeah, that was cool too.
Paul Litchfield (28:58):
So essentially they went ahead, and this is the other thing about product, the whole product thing. Everyone like products are pretty humbling experience. I thought I was working smart. It’s like this is the way to go. People when they’re using it, before they was called the plumber and they’re like, we like this. I’m like, all right, so we got to make this now. So the problem is we couldn’t make it, blah, blah, blah. I ran into a real break point where we were in some super critical timeline, and I called in one of my designers, this guy Paul Brown, who he had done the freestyle. He’s a British guy, proper shoe maker, and I’m like, Hey Paul, we can’t make the shoe because we literally can’t assemble it. Like I said, manufacturing, because of the way this is done, I said, we have to move this pump thing somewhere on the tongue. We have to move it here, because this was the most accessible place. And so Paul actually did this design, and about five or six days later, he brings back a drawing that.
The above transcript is generated using AI technology and therefore may contain errors.
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