Pat Vellner – 2024 Official Season Update Interview

Sevan Matossian (00:01):

You are on a constrained time. I dunno if that’s the right word. Constrained. You are on a schedule. You are man of schedule, family life.

Pat Vellner (00:12):

I’m always on a bit of constrained time these days, especially

Sevan Matossian (00:19):

6:59 AM Pacific Standard time. I am on the west coast of the North American continent. And you are also in that time zone in a more northern part of the coast of the North American continent, right?

Pat Vellner (00:36):

Yeah. I’m actually probably, I might even be more west than you

Sevan Matossian (00:42):

Because it hooks over or it hooks over.

Pat Vellner (00:45):

Yeah. And I’m on an island in the ocean.

Sevan Matossian (00:52):

Pat, you have two kids now?

Pat Vellner (00:55):

Yes, I do.

Sevan Matossian (00:57):

Tell me the, because this morning I was actually thinking, by the way, your son, what a great looking kid. I mean, both your kids are great looking kids, but what a strong looking baby. Holy cow. He already came out. I mean, he looks amazing. Congrats.

Pat Vellner (01:13):

Thanks. Thanks. I mean, look, I feel like everyone you have just as soon as they’re healthy, you kind of take a deep breath. That’s all you need.

Sevan Matossian (01:24):

Did he come out all good? No, he came out breathing and all that shit.

Pat Vellner (01:29):

Yeah, he came out early, so not crazy early two and a half weeks or so, but it was a bit sketchy. My wife started bleeding quite a bit in the evening. It was Friday and she had a bath and then kind of stood up and dumped a bunch of blood in the tub. So we went to the hospital quite urgently. But I mean, my wife delivers babies, so I think she had a better idea of what was going on in me. And it was good. Everything was fine to me. And she had a placental abruption, but things were under control and we were able to have a natural birth and baby came out healthy and he was good. I mean, our first baby was pretty big, and so this guy, by virtue of being a couple weeks early, was a little bit easier to push out. So it was a little bit smaller, but not small. Didn’t need NICU or anything like that. So we were nice. We were home kind of the next day basically. And my wife’s starting to work again already, so she’s pretty hardcore and awesome. So overall things have been really good. He doesn’t sleep as well as my firstborn did, but he’s doing all right.

Sevan Matossian (02:38):

How much did he weigh

Pat Vellner (02:41):

When he was born? I think he was seven one.

Sevan Matossian (02:43):

Oh, okay. So perfect. Perfect

Pat Vellner (02:45):

Size. Yeah, he wasn’t exactly, he wasn’t small, so he was fine. Started some weight for about a couple weeks, but then now he’s,

Sevan Matossian (02:55):

I’ve never heard of that. A placenta abruption. What is that? Did the umbilical cord get torn off the placenta in there or? I never heard of that. And blood is scary, right? I mean, blood is scary, especially if you’re at 15 weeks or at nine weeks, that means probably maybe

Pat Vellner (03:14):

A lot of blood.

Sevan Matossian (03:14):

Yeah. Yeah.

Pat Vellner (03:16):

So it’s good that you don’t know what it is. It means that probably you had pretty uncomplicated pregnancies and that’s great. But placental abruption is, it just means the placenta pulls away from the wall of the ute, so it’s like the placenta starts to detach,

Sevan Matossian (03:38):

And so basically the baby has to come out at that point, right? I guess it’s getting everything from their oxygen, food, everything.

Pat Vellner (03:49):

So pretty much once they start to, there’s a bit of a, depends how much comes off. I think past 30%, it’s got C-section pretty immediately. So we ran to the hospital and we were thinking we might have to go in for an e c-section, but the bleeding kind of slowed down and we monitored everything really closely. But we managed to have natural birth afterwards. So it was good. It scary times in the evening at the beginning. The beginning.

Sevan Matossian (04:20):

That’s crazy that you were able to have a natural birth. How does that happen? So you go in there and you see that she had Braxton Hicks or was she having contractions or was the water broke? How does she have the baby?

Pat Vellner (04:30):

She’d had some contractions before. I mean they induced labor as well. The next morning we were there through the first night just making sure that the bleeding was slowing down. And then by the next morning they started inducing labor. And then it took a, most of that day, we probably went in at 9:00 PM on the Friday and then had to be at 9:00 PM on Saturday.

Sevan Matossian (04:51):

That’s remarkable. That truly is remarkable. A lot of

Pat Vellner (04:53):

Times

Sevan Matossian (04:54):

She had a natural birth.

Pat Vellner (04:56):

Yeah, we were really happy. We were really hoping to do that. And she did not want to have a c-section. So it’s very interesting kind of situation being in the delivery room with her because that’s what she does for work. So it’s kind of funny. I always joke, it’s like your husband to workday, because these are all people she works with. She knows all the nurses, she knows all the obs, she knows all the staff, she also knows what’s going on. I just know blood bad, know much about the ins and outs of delivery and what complications can happen. So she’s very much taking the lead and I’m just kind of like, Hey, I’m going to try to help push me out of the way if you need to. But even the next day when things had smoothed out and we were just kind of waiting, it’s just funny because the nurses change shift and it’s high fives at the door like, oh, Dr. Work Hill, what’s up? We didn’t know you were delivering today. Great. So everybody knows everybody, right? And it’s a tight knit community. It was very fun in the end, it was really nice. And like I said, at the end of the day, outcomes is what matters most. And mom and baby were both healthy and happy. So it was good. Really actually ended up being a really nice delivery. And now,

Sevan Matossian (06:11):

And the baby looks like you. He’s

Pat Vellner (06:12):

Almost seven weeks I think now.

Sevan Matossian (06:14):

And the baby looks like you, so you’re pretty sure it’s yours. That’s always good. There’s always that moment when he first comes out. You’re like, hold on a minute.

Pat Vellner (06:22):

Nah, not in our house. I think we were actually funny. We were thinking there were going to be, he had really, really white blonde hair when he was born and he started to get a little bit of red kind of creeping in now. But we kind of thought all the babies would have just red hair straight up. And so he’s got a little bit more blonde in him. So I don’t know. We’ll see how it goes if it starts to change or not. But he’s starting to come online. He is looking at you more. He is looking around. He’s paying more attention. He started to engage a little more, which is really fun.

Sevan Matossian (06:58):

How long ago was he born? How old is he?

Pat Vellner (07:01):

So he was born on February 17th. I think he’s like seven weeks now. Well, seven weeks. No, today’s Saturday. Yeah, I think seven weeks today or six weeks today.

Sevan Matossian (07:11):

You put together that CrossFit compilation recently and I forgot how much you used to look like Ed Shehan Shehan, the singer. It’s crazy. Yeah. Did people say you looked like that guy a lot in

Pat Vellner (07:28):

The day? I used to a lot. Yeah.

Sevan Matossian (07:30):

Yeah. It’s wild.

Pat Vellner (07:31):

Maybe I’ve grown out of it, but

Sevan Matossian (07:35):

How long have you been doing CrossFit pat?

Pat Vellner (07:40):

Since 13, early 2013. So whatever that makes that. 11 years now.

Sevan Matossian (07:47):

And how old are you?

Pat Vellner (07:50):

I’m 33. CrossFit says I’m 34.

Sevan Matossian (07:55):

So basically since you’ve been 21 or 22?

Pat Vellner (08:01):

Yeah, 22. I would’ve been turning 23 the year I started. I would’ve been 22 and a half.

Sevan Matossian (08:08):

What a cool body composition shift you had every single year. What an incredible, it’s nuts. It’s just a slow sustained. Just every year you look more and more like the Hulk. And what’s crazy is at 33 you look the best you ever have. I mean, you truly are starting to look like an action figure. You’re starting to look like Tia Tumi.

Pat Vellner (08:34):

Yeah. Oh man. Life goals. Hey.

Sevan Matossian (08:36):

Yeah. I mean

Pat Vellner (08:38):

It’s pretty

Sevan Matossian (08:38):

Cool. Do you get excited about that outside of all the competition? You’re like, you wake up in the morning, you walk by the mirror and you’re like, fuck, there’s my life’s work.

Pat Vellner (08:48):

It’s pretty cool. I think it’s cool to have a job that allows you to do that. Most people don’t have that. I think it’s something that a lot of people have to make time for. I mean, yourself included, it is another thing you have to add into your day. Whereas for me, it’s kind of a big part of my day. Those are the things that I have to punch in and do. And then I also get all the secondary benefits of physical activity being healthier and whatever. And I’m not going to lie, there’s the way that we train, or at least I train, is not the healthiest way train. My body’s hurts, my joints are hurting and I’m going to, there’ll be a part of me that’s very sad when I stop competing. But I think there will be another part of me that’s very happy that I get to live with a little less of that daily beat down. So I think it’s very cool. Yeah, you’re right. It’s fun to cool. Think of it as your life’s work to try to maintain some of that for as long as I’m alive, right?

Sevan Matossian (09:49):

Yeah. You get to look, it’s like sleeping underneath the Sistine Chapel, you know what I mean? It’s like your greatest, your art, your daily work is there with you at all times, right? So wherever you go, there it is. You go to bed at night and you go to bed with your work, you wake up in the morning with your work, you’re working on improving your body or maintaining it or enhancing its capabilities. There it is. It’s just always there. You can’t compartmentalize your life at all. Fair?

Pat Vellner (10:23):

Oh boy. Do I try though?

Sevan Matossian (10:27):

Do you really try? Do you really try?

Pat Vellner (10:29):

Oh yeah. I think I like when things fit boxes and I like being able to turn the page from one thing to another. So that’s partly why I have a home gym set up, but I don’t use it as much as a lot of people would because I like to go to work and then I like to come home and I like to whatever. So I don’t think I look at it as a constant reminder of my work or anything like that. But I think it’s a nice, like I said, a nice secondary benefit. My wife always jokes that I should probably in the next couple of years do some sort of boudoir photo shoot or just get some nice naked foes taken. Like your body’s as good as it’s ever going to look.

Sevan Matossian (11:10):

It’d

Pat Vellner (11:11):

Be nice to have a snapshot in time of here you go. And then when you’re in you’re 60, you can look back at that and say like, Hey, I did all that work and this is what it was.

Sevan Matossian (11:23):

And the thing is, there are also so many pictures of you already, right? So much pictures and video and so many people basically recording your evolution anyway.

Pat Vellner (11:34):

That’s what I always say. There are enough photos of me, I would on the internet in existence with my shirt off and on and all kinds of whatever. So I think it’s probably okay, but it’s a good thought.

Sevan Matossian (11:49):

Shannon Maderis. Michelle’s a rockstar. Boys are adorable. Family is awesome. You’re pretty cool too.

Pat Vellner (11:54):

Oh, thanks Shanna. Shannon’s a great cheerleader.

Sevan Matossian (11:57):

I agree. Fergie show, which CrossFit athlete does Pat Ner wish would have broken his fall off the carton net. Oh, off the cargo net. Oh, if you could have fallen on someone, who would you like to have? It would’ve been nice to landed on Matt who?

Pat Vellner (12:20):

Lucas

Sevan Matossian (12:21):

Hoberg. Lucas Holberg.

Pat Vellner (12:23):

He’s big. It would’ve been a nice cushion. He was exceptionally good that year. And then if that had hurt him a little bit, he also tied Brent for third place that year and won the tie break. So I don’t know if that hurts him a little bit and it takes him out. Then I get Brent up on the podium with me, Lucas Berg. Easy answer. I

Sevan Matossian (12:42):

Love it. Hey, tell Brent to check his dms please. If you talk to him,

Pat Vellner (12:48):

Why you reaching out to him

Sevan Matossian (12:49):

Or Yeah, or send him my phone number. Yeah, I’m dying to have him on. Oh my goodness. I God damn. How’d you find that Susa so fast

Pat Vellner (13:01):

Earlier today? What a moment.

Sevan Matossian (13:06):

Oh my goodness. Hey, what a beautiful

Pat Vellner (13:07):

Mom.

Sevan Matossian (13:09):

What a beautiful scene there, right too, that layout, that whole games. I mean, what a beautiful shot. Look at that.

Pat Vellner (13:17):

That whole obstacle course was cool. Those years that we did the obstacle course in mural. That was 18 and 17. We did the small one and it was fun. They’re really cool to do and the scale of them is really sweet. Those are the things that you like to go to the CrossFit games for stuff that you can’t replicate. That’s what makes it really fun. So I’m interested to see even this year, the move to Texas, what that’s going to look like. It’s new opportunities, something different. I’m like, Madison was fun that we did some really cool stuff that, but I always like something new and so I’m just excited to see what the next stage brings.

Sevan Matossian (13:54):

It’s also cool. Go ahead. Go ahead.

Pat Vellner (13:58):

No, I was going to say I’ll be one of only a few people if I make it back. That’s done California, Addison and Texas.

Sevan Matossian (14:07):

Sorry, there’s a little bit of a delay. So normally I interrupt every other thing you say. Now it’s like everything you say. I apologize, but yeah, agree. I agree. It’s going to be like every time we switch locations, it almost feels like a new era and it’s like, yeah, you’re getting to, you’re there for the beginning of this new era. What are you eating?

Pat Vellner (14:29):

A piece of banana bread. My wife went on a baking bender yesterday, so I’m taking advantage. We’re trying to use up a bunch of stuff moving again here soon. So trying to use up a bunch of things.

Sevan Matossian (14:44):

Are you going to get in trouble? Is this one of those things where she’s asleep and she’s going to wake up and you ate more than you’re supposed to eat?

Pat Vellner (14:50):

I don’t think she’s eaten any yet, and I’ve had a third of it, so had some last night I figured out I’ll get up, I’ll have a coffee and some banana bread and have this chap, so we’ll see. I don’t know, I just say she better hit the gas if it’s sitting there on the counter, I’m going to start having some pieces of it, so if you want. So I’ll be better get moving. I’m not going to save it for full week. It’s going to get stable.

Sevan Matossian (15:11):

Why are you moving?

Pat Vellner (15:16):

I know we live in a nice place, but we’re moving back east to Quebec to be close to family basically is what it comes down. My wife’s family is all there. And right now we have no family and we have two young kids and it’s tough work and we’re busy and we travel lots and it’s hard. It’s nice to have community and it’s nice to have help. So I think for up to this point, we’ve generally been people who are very more long-term thinkers I think. And so we tend to delay gratification and just deal with misery in the minute. And I think we’re realizing that what that means is we’re fine. We could continue to live here and raise the kids and be totally fine, except we would just see less and less of each other. And I think that that sucks. The thought of that is painful.

(16:17):

So we’ve decided to move. We were building a house right now. It’s kind of actively being built right now in Quebec, and we’re going to move in June, early June, and the house is going to get finished in the fall, winter, and then we’ll have some family around extra help with childcare, better access to daycares, stuff like that. So it’s just going to help our lifestyle a little bit. It’s going to help us bring our relationship back together a little bit, which is going to be nice. I think that that’s just like we see a lot of value in that, having more time to spend with each other and I think that that’s what the plan is going to be. It sucks. It’s always bittersweet. It’s going to feel bad to leave the mountains and the ocean and that kind stuff, but it’s another, we’re moving to another beautiful place. So I think you just have to, we were just saying about the games, you have to look at it as another chapter and it’ll be fun. I think it’s going to be really cool. So coming soon though, things are hectic because we’re trying to pack up this house and sell it then and do that before the end of May and then move in June. And I also have to do semifinals at the end of May and we’ve got a six week old and we got, so yeah, things going on. Busy. It’s busy time.

Sevan Matossian (17:36):

You’re stressing me out. Who packs up your gym and shit? Who packs up your house? Do you guys do all that yourselves?

Pat Vellner (17:45):

Yeah, we’re doing most of it right now. My parents were here for a bit when the baby was born and same with Michelle’s family. So they had been helping with some little things of just get house prepared. We got some people coming to help get the lawn and everything looking nice for sale. And I got to take down on the back on the side of the house soon. It’s on my to-do list.

Sevan Matossian (18:11):

Do you consider leaving it Pat? Do you consider leaving that just to be like, fuck, it’s too much work. I’m just leaving it Too much work to take it down. Too much work to move it. I’ll just Dear billing to try to get something new.

Pat Vellner (18:23):

No, I’m not going to bring it. I’m just going to take it off the house. I don’t think add value to the new people buying, I think it’s actually probably something that they’re just going to have to then take down. My expectation is if it was up when we show the house, one of the conditions that sale would be that we take it down before we leave.

Sevan Matossian (18:39):

Oh, okay.

Pat Vellner (18:39):

And I know that the gym here that I train at has expressed interest in buying some of the pieces of the rig so they could add onto their rig. So I was just like, oh, sweet, I’ll probably bring some of my stuff and then I’m probably just going to sell some of my equipment and stuff here back to the gym so that they have more things there. Kind of had a nice renaissance lately. There’s some new owners came in and the gym’s been lots of new members, nice makeover. So it’s doing great. So I think that it would be nice to just give them some new stuff to use for that.

Sevan Matossian (19:18):

How do you build a house? You guys fly out there, you look, you’re like, here’s some empty land a few miles from where the family lives, and then you just contract an architect and contractor and do it. It’s just like that. You’re like, Hey, we need three bedrooms. You need a, I mean dude building. We remodeled a house once and the fucking number of questions and things you have to decide. That’s stressful. I cannot believe how many things you have on your plate, dude.

Pat Vellner (19:48):

Yeah, I know. Sometimes I wonder why I live this way, but I can’t help it. It’s just in my nature. But yes, your question to building a house, it’s very much more involved than you would think and you don’t know where to start. I think the best way to think of it is to hire people who know more than you. So it’s paralysis by analysis when you’re building, because we’re building a custom home. If you try to start from scratch, I think you’ll take forever. It’s impossible to make a decision when the options are unlimited. So we just said like, Hey, we’ve hired a technologist to make an initial design. And we just gave him a list of things being like, Hey, we like this is a type of this number of bedrooms, this amount of whatever, and you gave priority and they come up with an initial design and then you just hit fall back and forth a bunch and be like, no, this looks like whatever.

(20:44):

We’d like to have more of this. Oh, we want this upstairs or we want the shape to look more like this. And then they just are experienced at creating initial model. And then once you have something to work from, it’s much easier and you get a visual and you’re like, oh, okay. I like what you did here. Actually, this is really cool, but I’m thinking more of something like this. And they kicked back a couple different renderings and so that was super helpful. But it was kind of random. A couple of years ago we were visiting Michelle’s family and we had mentioned offhandedly that we probably look at moving in the next couple of years, maybe once we have the second baby. And we’re just thinking, we always do just kind of family planning and making a big plan. And Michelle’s mom is super well connected in the area and it’s a pretty tight community out there.

(21:38):

And she by the next day got us a list of little like, oh this so-and-so has this land up in this area that’s just being developed and they’re looking to sell it. It’s not on open market yet. We could probably get a private bill, whatever. So we just got lucky, got a couple options we could look into, and then we bought a piece of land a couple years ago and then earmarked it for future development. And then we’ve been just kind of on the process of designing the house for the last couple years. And now it’s cool to see. Now they poured foundation, did a bunch of stuff recently, they’re starting to do framing and when it starts to happen, it happens fast. It feels like it’s been this very intangible academic exercise for two years, like these designs and things, but nothing really happening. And then suddenly it’s like there’s shovels in the ground and we set up a live feed camera, like webcam on one of the trees near the site so we can come online and look at what the progress is like and it’s time lapsing photos so we can time-lapse the build of the house, which is pretty cool. Oh, that’s

Sevan Matossian (22:48):

Cool.

Pat Vellner (22:49):

That’s super cool. So we’re kind of keeping tabs on and it’s cool. It’s very exciting. It’s fun to see things start to move. I mean now we got to pay builders and we got to do things like that so it’s not all good

Sevan Matossian (23:01):

And very busy. Everything’s like a crazy decision, right? They’re like, we can pour a slab and it can be a 60 year slab, but for $10,000 more we can put a few drops of this shit and it’ll be $80,000 slab and it’ll last a hundred years. Do you want the wood that’s pressed together? Do you want a single blah blah, blah lumber? And you’re just like, holy shit, is this house going to cost us twice as much as we thought. Is it way more expensive than you thought? For sure.

Pat Vellner (23:26):

Yeah. And things are expensive for sure right now in general. It’s more than I wish it was. But I think also you’ve we’re planning to live there for at least the next 20 years.

Sevan Matossian (23:43):

How many years

Pat Vellner (23:44):

Go to school, whatever. I’d say at least next 2020 I would say we’re planning to live there kind of forever. We’re building it as if it’s our forever house. I think we’re not building it with weird bells and whistles that are going to make it hard to sell if you ever did want to sell so specific to you. But I think you don’t want to cheap out on certain things, especially that are structural. We’re trying to make decisions now that are reasonable for building really nice bones. And then if there’s some nice finishes that are a bit flashy or more expensive or whatever, I don’t need to do that right now. We can save some money on custom build cabinetry or things like that. You could always remodel some of that stuff in two or three years. It’d be totally fine. So we’re not fully trying to break the bank on everything.

(24:36):

It is expensive and things add up really fast, but every decision does feel like a big decision. And we had spent a week debating siding color, exterior siding color, and going, getting so granular on this whatever shade of green we were going to use for this exterior siding. And they were so similar like, oh, we’re stuck between these three colors, but they’re the fucking name. And depending on which the light’s shining or if there’s shadows on it or not, they could look similar at certain times of day. And the reality is any one of those options you’d probably be totally happy with and forget about it immediately once you move on from it. But when you’re making the decision, it feels like, oh, this is going to be the color forever. This is such a big decision. So you kind of stress yourself out over it.

(25:32):

But I think it is important for us to remember, you’re going to be happy with this stuff if you’ve narrowed down from everything to these three. These three are all really good choices. So just any one of them you’d be very happy with and you trick yourself into thinking that one of them is going to bring you absolute and enduring happiness until the end of days. That’s just not how things work. So oh, want your front door to look like? It’s like we narrow it to a couple of things and then you’re really freaking out about this and they’re saying, dude, you got to pick one because we got to order the doors by Friday. And you’re like, oh no, I got to make this decision. And it’s such a big decision, but it’s not really, I think you can make anything into a big deal. So we’re trying to not lose perspective of that, that they’re all going to be good decisions and nothing is really final either. But it’s a big job. And I think my wis on mat leave right now, which is amazing. And so she’s, she’s been managing a lot of that stuff and just communicating with builders and things and making small decisions when she has to. So it’s sort of taken it out of my hair for most of the days and we’ll just talk about big stuff.

Sevan Matossian (26:45):

My wife does all the adult stuff and I loved it so much when the builder would just tell us stuff like, Hey, you should do this. Just don’t just like, fuck. It’s jumping over a hurdle and clearing it. And you’re right. You have to just let it go. You cannot look backwards, you’ll hate yourself.

Pat Vellner (27:04):

And I think we also are not naive to think that we know best about a lot of things. I think asking us for our opinion or decision on some things is almost laughable In some cases. We’re like, well, I don’t know what decision makes sense and you’ve got to be paying attention. We don’t want to get fleeced by builders or people that are just upselling you on every little thing. I got to tell you, Michelle’s really good at that. She’s keeping the receipts.

Sevan Matossian (27:31):

Do you like your builder? That’s huge too. Yeah, we don’t realize that too. Your builder, you end up having a pretty intimate relationship with your builder’s pretty, A lot of people in big buildings, big houses, they’ll separate from their builder mid project. It’s not uncommon for there to be you guys. Yeah,

Pat Vellner (27:50):

And I think actually because we had a couple of years we were talking with them before we started, and honestly I think most of the pre-construction phase of planning and this and that, lots of calls talking to ’em about various things, design, he was involved in the design process and I think that stuff kind of strained our relationship a little bit because we were feeling like, oh, before you’re signing the contract and everything’s like we’re doing a fixed rate contract build. And I think we were, I don’t want to say we were high maintenance clients, but I think we’re not people that are just going to be like, yes to all sign the paper or whatever. And I think he was getting a little annoyed with some of the questions we were asking or we are very persistent in the things that we want. And so now that it’s building, I think that we were a bit annoyed at him with how responsive he was over certain things while we were trying to ask questions.

(28:47):

But now that we’re building, he’s been terrific. And so it’s been really good. He’s a good resource, he’s experienced and I think when you don’t know what to do in certain situations, he’s happy to give you tidbits of his experience and whatever. So it’s been good. I would say it’s been overall positive experience. It’s just funny. It takes so long to plan and two years of planning. And then by the time we started, it feels like you’re already behind. But it’s been very cool. So we’re excited. It’s going to be really fun. We should be moved in by Christmas is the plan, but we’ll see.

Sevan Matossian (29:23):

But you moved there in June, but you moved there in June?

Pat Vellner (29:27):

Yeah, so my wife’s spirits live quite close to where our build site is, but they live close by a trail. So we live in adjacent neighborhoods that are kind of in the hillside and the road access kind of goes down to the road like this. And road access is really far away, but the tops of the neighborhoods are kind of close. It’s like a 10 minute trail walk that connects the top of the trails or the top of the neighborhoods. So they live quite close and we’re going to stay with them for.

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