#894 – Affiliate Live Call In w/ Chris Cooper from Two Brian Business

Sevan Matossian (00:01):

Bam, we’re live. Hey. Hi everyone. Thanks for being here, Suza. Hi.

Mattew Souza (00:08):

Good morning.

Sevan Matossian (00:10):

I do. Woo. Mornings are crazy. Mornings are wild because I opened my phone and the whole world just like falls into your face. It’s so crazy. I was just watching a video of Christmas abod, getting in a bar fight. It was nuts. What <laugh>. I know Tomorrow show’s gonna be funny. And then I was reading the comments from yesterday’s show. Wow. Holy cow. Wow. People are fired up. <laugh>. People are fired up. Thank you everyone for the education. Everyone needs to settle down just to, just to schmid, but thank you. Wow. We got so much to talk about. Listen, uh, we’re gonna try some. We got all sorts of new stuff coming down the pipe. Uh, starting with this show is going to be interesting. Um, I, uh, expect a lot from our guests cuz he is always wonderful. I’m not sure what to expect from the audience because this is the first time we’ve done this.


We were going to do, uh, a dating show with, um, Danielle Brandon, where people could call and get advice on like, dating and, and her only, I, I guess her street cred is that she’s so hot. She’s had to deal with just a lot of dudes hitting on her. And I just like her, love her to death. Um, and she’s, uh, raw and real, but we couldn’t pull that off. Right? Or, or not yet, but not yet. Not yet. But a, a close sister, uh, cousin to that show would be to have Chris Cooper on. And although he might not be an expert in dating device, uh, he is an expert in, um, running a small business, uh, specifically, uh, Jims, uh, anywhere on planet Earth, uh, where we live. Regardless if you think the Earth is flat or round the advice, uh, it translates to both.


That’s correct. Right? Still works. Yeah. That’s right. Yeah. Still, it’s, it’s awesome. It’s gonna be, it’s good advice. Great stuff. Always a great guest. So we’re gonna open up the phone lines and anyone can call in. Uh, two more things. We, uh, we’ve picked up four sponsors and we’ve switched to a different, uh, hosting company. A hosting company is basically wherever our, uh, podcast. Um, whenever the podcast is done, Suza beams it up to a hosting company, and then from there it goes to Amazon, Spotify, iTunes, it goes to all of those places. So then you guys can access it through apps. Well, this guy that we’ve switched to, his name is Zack, and the name of his company is called Proven Grit. He’s picked up a ton of sponsors for us, and I’m gonna have to do some readings of those sponsors. So you guys gotta bear with me.


But I do think that they’re gonna be fun. One is like for therapy. So like, let’s say, let’s say you’re just, um, and we, and we have a world full of people blaming other people for their problems. So I think that that’s a great sponsor for us. We can point you to therapy so you can stop blaming other people and get control of your life. One of them is Manscape, and I already used their shaver. I use their ball shaver on my face. I don’t know if that’s gonna be a good fit, but <laugh>, I don’t, I don’t usually use it on my genitalia. I’ve never used it on my genitalia. Not yet. And then there’s, and then there’s, uh, two other sponsors. But, but I am excited about them, all of it and trying it. Um, I did have some apprehension about doing readings and so we had, we’ve had the sponsors for like two months, but I’ve been avoiding doing it.


And, uh, but I, but yesterday we had got on a phone call and I think we can work it into the show. So it’s funny and I don’t wanna spend any of that, the, the truth equity that I’ve built. So, um, uh, unfundable, I know it and I am concerned that we could lose the sponsors quickly based on how I present them. But, but I do think it will be good for the sponsors. Just some people might not see it. Okay. Uh, with little, what, what did they say in Vaudeville with Little Adu? Mr. Uh, Chris Cooper, two Brain Business. Chris, what’s up dude?

Chris Cooper (03:32):

Hey guys, great to see you. Thanks for having me.

Sevan Matossian (03:35):

Ha twice in a row. Su Susan and I are trying to put you on top and we keep, uh, I

Chris Cooper (03:39):

Do it at the same exact time. Okay.

Sevan Matossian (03:41):

I’m not doing it. You do it. I’m standing in my lane, I’m standing there.

Chris Cooper (03:44):

It’s <laugh>. That doesn’t matter to me where I go.

Sevan Matossian (03:48):

Uh, now that Chevon is, uh, owned by Manscape, he won’t be able to speak about his true feelings about Big Bushes. Listen, I love everything natural and I will continue to, uh, stay true to my, uh, love for whatever creator we have, how he made us, you know? That’s true. Alright, uh, Chris,

Chris Cooper (04:09):

I better frame it.

Sevan Matossian (04:10):

<laugh>, thank you. Uh, thanks for coming on. This is, this is, this is fun. Um, uh, thousands. How many, how many gems do you think there are on planet Earth, um, that are, uh, mom and Pop owned? Is that fair? Is that fair? And by mom? Yeah, just over, obviously. I don’t mean moms and dads, but I mean small, yeah, small boutique gyms that are, um, where you get where group classes, coaching the, what looks like the CrossFit model.

Chris Cooper (04:39):

Probably about, uh, just under 40,000 is our best estimate. If you don’t count personal training studios in that number. Group classes. Yeah.

Sevan Matossian (04:47):

And that includes places like Westside Barbell too. Like, like we have some, like, just like places in our town that are proud to be just like the, the Steel gym, like that includes 40,000, including those

Chris Cooper (04:56):

Yeah. Starting Strength has, uh, um, some, I don’t know, they have a bunch of franchisees even, but I would also include, uh, like the F 45 s and the Orange theories in that group. Okay. Number two.

Sevan Matossian (05:08):

And, and, and those are, those are basically the F 45 in the Orange Theory. Those are basically like, um, I’m not really sure how the franchise model works, but that it’s basically a CrossFit gym, but you have to follow certain rules, right? Like sign signage and classes and programming and stuff like that.

Chris Cooper (05:24):

Yeah, I mean, they’re corporate owned or, or sorry, they’re not corporate owned. You become a franchisee. They tell you exactly how to run it. Uh, they usually have like one key metric or one kind of twist. So F 45, you go in and like all the exercise demos happen on a screen and there are some low paid coaches circulating to make sure that you’re not actually going to brain yourself with like the dumbbell, uh, orange Theory. It’s a little bit closer to the CrossFit model. It’s just like they’re gonna focus on your heart rate. And they’ve made that really simple and easy to understand. And they usually charge about double wet a CrossFit gym charges.

Sevan Matossian (05:59):

Oh no. Oh, I didn’t know that. Interesting. Okay. Oh,

Chris Cooper (06:01):

Yeah. At least. Yeah. The, uh, average owner profit from an Orange Theory is between 400,000 and 800,000 in their first year.

Sevan Matossian (06:10):

Orange Theory Gay <laugh>. Could you l Listen, listen, let’s be, let’s be, let’s be smart. Could you have Suza? Oh, Suza owns CrossFit Livermore. This has already gone off the rails, but we have to, uh, sorry. Suza owns CrossFit Livermore. Could you have, are there any places where there’s a CrossFit gym and an Orange Theory in the same building?

Chris Cooper (06:28):

I’m sure there are. I don’t, I don’t know any of them, uh, offhand, but it could happen. And like, so what happens though is, uh, an Orange Theory is more of an investor asset where a CrossFit gym is an owner-operator business, right? You’re buying yourself a job, ch changing lives that you’re passionate about. You’re probably gonna be delivering in an Orange theory. I’m going to buy the territory. I’m probably never going to coach a class in that gym. And, you know, I, it’s gonna cost me whatever their franchise fee is. Well over a million. And, um, it’s funny that the person that they’re touting right now is like, their biggest success story is somebody who used to own McDonald’s Orange Theory is like the McDonald’s version of CrossFit. And their, their big success story is like this former McDonald’s franchisee who sold all of his McDonald’s, and now he has this healthy business.

Sevan Matossian (07:15):

Oh, tr Oh, wow. So as a success story, you mean as a business person, not as a weight loss story. Yeah.

Chris Cooper (07:21):

Right, right, right. I mean, he is losing weight. Good, good on him, you know, he’s making these lifestyle choices. But,

Sevan Matossian (07:26):

Um, we do, we in, in this space, we don’t, and I, I don’t do, I do not mean this as a dig at all, but in this space, we cel I don’t remember ever celebrating really business owners for their business acumen. Like we’ve, we don’t hold someone up and be like, oh my God, look at, um, Craig Howard. He, he has 600 members and his gym has been running for 15 years. And it’s not, we don’t really do too much of that. It’s mostly like, holy cow, look at this person lost a hundred pounds. Look, this person, their F N F L career was over and now they’re, they got one more year by Duke going to Chris Cooper’s gym. Stuff like that.

Chris Cooper (08:03):

Well, I do it. So we publish leaderboards every single month about this stuff. The reason that CrossFit HQ has never wanted to do it in the past is because it’s really hard to tell who’s telling the truth about that. Like, and it’s also really hard to quantify who’s successful. Like, I could have 600 clients and not be making any money at all and still close next month. But I think we’ve talked about that before. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>,

Sevan Matossian (08:24):

We have, I always forget that. So Two Brain Business has a leader board

Chris Cooper (08:29):

Yeah. For different metrics. So most clients is one. Um-huh. <affirmative>, you know, highest value per client is one most revenue is one. Most take Home is one. And we publish these, um, we publish them internally every month, but we rotate and publish them anonymously every month too.

Sevan Matossian (08:45):

I, I guess it’s, um, I guess overhead’s always a big issue on determining a, a Jim’s, uh, success. It’s like a metric that can, you know, you know, comparing to Jim in Manhattan, uh, versus, uh, Iowa in, in the tech business. I, I remember, I don’t know if it’s true, true this, uh, to this day anymore, but when, when I was employed, when I was employable, uh, there was this metric where you wanted your revenue, like the, uh, the gold standard would be your revenue would be $1 million per employee. So if you had a hundred million dollar company with a hundred employees and you were in Silicon Valley, you were the shit. Right. That was like, wow. That was like, yeah. Pretty amazing. Right. And, um, is there something like that, uh, for CrossFit too? Is there some number that, that jumps in your head? Like, Hey, if you have, but not for employees, but for clients, like I’ve heard you say 50 clients is, um, uh, you, you stay, you keep both nostrils above water and 150 clients and you actually, um, can buy avocados and, and consider having a child.

Chris Cooper (09:47):

Yeah. Yeah. I mean the, the number

Sevan Matossian (09:49):

My words not yours. Those are the metrics I <laugh>

Chris Cooper (09:52):

Yeah. The avocado. Yeah. Avocados per client.

Sevan Matossian (09:55):

Yes. Yes, exactly.

Chris Cooper (09:57):

Well, they don’t yet because nobody’s ever tracked any numbers in CrossFit until we did. But, um, that is an interesting metric. I think the closest that we would have to, that would be a r m, which is like if you took all your revenue and you divided it by the number of clients, you have the average revenue per member, a r m should be about 2 0 5.

Sevan Matossian (10:15):

Okay. Yeah. That is exactly what I’m looking for. Okay. That’s awesome. Okay. Yeah. Uh, you’re 10 minutes in and you’re wondering why, uh, Chris Cooper? So Chris has a ton of experience, uh, but he also, uh, he has a ton of experience. He has a ton of clients. Um, he, uh, and, and from, from the, the metrics that I’ve seen and what I know, he runs the largest consulting, gym, consulting, um, uh, business in the world. And not only that of the, I’m making this number up 150 people that I’ve spoke to over the, the years that have used two brain business. I’ve only heard one. And it was actually recently where they, um, where it wasn’t to fit only one. Now, I’m not saying that there hasn’t been more than one, but it was only one. And and I don’t know a lot of details about it, but, um, there is a gem in my sphere that’s, uh, circling the bowl.


And, uh, and, and, and they’ve had some interaction. They were already circling the bowl, and then they had some interactions with, uh, two Brain that, and they’re still with Two Brain, by the way. They haven’t given up, but, but I’ve, I’ve heard some frustration. But other than that, it’s been like a fucking perfect record. Uh, thanks. Which, which is pretty crazy, including Matt Suza. That’s how I met Matt Suza. Uh, my, my, my sister told me the story, can’t be told enough. But basically, I had Chris on the CrossFit podcast. Matt was a listener of the CrossFit podcast. He heard it, he tinkered with his gym with some of the stuff that Chris shared. He read Chris’s books. And it didn’t even purchase the, you didn’t even, you weren’t even a client of theirs, right?

Mattew Souza (11:46):

No, I couldn’t even afford to pay attention at that point. So we were <laugh>.

Sevan Matossian (11:50):

And, and, and Susan literally called me a couple years later and says, Hey, I owe you something. And I said, what for? He said, because when you had Chris Cruise, Chris Cruise, Chris Cru <laugh>, when you had Chris Cooper on, uh, Savon, it changed, it changed my, uh, life and my gym. And for the first time in my life, my gym was profitable. So, uh, so that was, uh, pretty damn amazing. Um, thanks. Yeah. It, it, it is great. And every time we have you on the, the feedback’s amazing. We probably, we can’t have you on enough.

Chris Cooper (12:21):

Oh, that’s great. Well, um, you’ve taught me to enjoy sparkling water, so

Sevan Matossian (12:26):

I’d like to Oh, no. <laugh>. Oh no.

Chris Cooper (12:28):

One of, one of the first times I was at your house, you had this big stack of LaCroix and it was in case, I think Haley’s nephews ever came over. You wanted to give them an alternative to Oh my

Sevan Matossian (12:38):

God. Wow. I remember that. You were there for that.

Chris Cooper (12:40):


Sevan Matossian (12:41):

You were. Wow. Okay.

Chris Cooper (12:43):

I’m the ghost in, in your house. Savan. I mean,

Mattew Souza (12:45):

<laugh>, he’s unsettled now. He’s like,

Sevan Matossian (12:49):

Since then, Chris, I’ve really tried to stop drinking sparkling water. We’ll talk afterwards, but when my nephews still do come to town, I like to go buy like 10 cases of sparkling water and just stack it in the kitchen, cuz I know it’s exciting for them to drink. So I think that’s what

Chris Cooper (13:02):


Sevan Matossian (13:03):

Yeah. Yeah. Come to the uncle’s house and, uh, and get the treat se Oh, LaCroix. I’ve, I’ve since switched to the cheaper, uh, select brand. Um,

Mattew Souza (13:11):

You’re all not that LaCroix back in the day.

Sevan Matossian (13:13):

Yeah. Oh, it’s free. Yeah. This,

Chris Cooper (13:15):

When would this have been? 2018? Yeah, I don’t know. That’s a guess.

Sevan Matossian (13:19):

Yeah, that was the year. That was the year we were doing the podcast. The podcast. Yeah.

Mattew Souza (13:22):

2017. I could actually tell you cuz I, that was a rough period for me, so I remember it very vividly.

Sevan Matossian (13:27):

<laugh>, there you go. Susan o

Mattew Souza (13:28):

<laugh>. I know.

Sevan Matossian (13:29):

We didn’t even know Suza. He was a stain on the wall. He was a peon back then, but I was

Mattew Souza (13:33):

Just an unread dm.

Sevan Matossian (13:35):

Yes. <laugh>.

Mattew Souza (13:36):

That’s all I was <laugh>.

Sevan Matossian (13:38):

Uh, Chris is having a, uh, a summit in, uh, Chicago very soon. Can you tell us about the summit,

Chris Cooper (13:46):

Chris? Yeah, so I, I try to just bring gym owners together once a year and bring in speakers that I think would, would help what they’re going through right now. And so, like a couple years ago we had Jocko Willink, we’ve had Seth Goden, Lisa Nichols, some really big names, um, this year, uh, it’s June, I believe it’s seventh and eighth in Chicago. And we’ll do a couple days. Khalifa’s gonna lead workouts every morning, then he’ll, he’ll speak a little bit. Uh, Dan Martel. Yeah, there we go. Right on. Dan Martel will speak. I mean, there’s, uh, 30 some vendors, 400 people have already registered. So it’s, um, it, it’s just awesome. Like, I couldn’t even get a speaking spot on my own stage this year because the other speakers are so amazing that I I got bumped, but, cool.

Mattew Souza (14:30):

<laugh>? Yeah, <laugh>.

Sevan Matossian (14:32):

Um, caller one, one caller hung up. Sorry, caller, uh, we didn’t get to them fast enough. Hey, A and can anyone go or do you have to be a client?

Chris Cooper (14:41):

No, anybody can go. Yeah, there’s still some tickets. I think there’s just under 200 tickets left. But it will sell out. It usually does. And, uh, you know, it, probably half of our clients are gyms just over half now, I think 53% or something. So just over 400 CrossFit gyms in the program now. But, um, a lot of them will be there. And it, it’s cool though, like we’re gonna put you at a table with seven other owners. You’re gonna make friends for life. You know, people take vacations together with the others that they met at Summit. So it, the whole point is really just to connect you with a, an infrastructure.

Sevan Matossian (15:15):

I I, I’m projecting, but what, what, what do you say to the people who are like me, who just don’t want to travel? They’re adverse to meeting new people and they’re socially like, they like their gym. They’re good at that. They like coaching. Uh, but, but they’re, they’re just avoiding going. What, what would be a a, a selling point? Why go there?

Chris Cooper (15:31):

Well, I mean, I’m in that boat cuz we’re leaving for Stockholm in about four or five hours to speak there. And I’m kind of just over the travel right now. But, um, my advice is do it anyway. You know, you hate it till you start. It’s like cross it, right? Like I was gonna

Sevan Matossian (15:46):

Say it’s classroom. I was gonna say it’s sex. Alright.

Chris Cooper (15:49):

You, you hate sex till you start. Yeah. I’m

Sevan Matossian (15:50):

Sorry. Yeah. Then you’re like, all right, this is thank settle twisting

Mattew Souza (15:53):

My own. If I, if I could say I would, I would just recommend going to something like that just for the energy. Like, especially if you’ve been in there for a long period of time and you could get around like-minded people, talk shop, you were like, oh, these are my people. I feel like I could have conversations and, and take a lot away from that. So that’s why I would say you should go.

Chris Cooper (16:10):


Sevan Matossian (16:11):

Um, Manny speak. What about a SevOne chat meet up at the summit? Well, that is a brilliant idea.

Chris Cooper (16:17):

Yeah. If only SevOne would show up <laugh> and if only somebody had thought to invite him. Uh, yeah.

Sevan Matossian (16:24):

So, so go. I, I, I I, that what, what Su said really, uh, resonates with me because I remember even as a kid, like going to camp or something and I wouldn’t want to go. And every time I went I was like, oh my God, that was so great. And I came home reinvigorated for life. So it’s one of, it’s, it’s, it’s reinvigorating at its bare minimum.

Chris Cooper (16:43):

Yeah. Yeah. Like, I want people to fall in love with owning a gym again. And, uh, I know that when you’re off by yourself sitting in your basement programming or whatever, it’s easy to question like, what am I doing here? But the reality is, when you’re in a room with 600 gym owners and everybody is really excited about owning a gym, you can just gain so much momentum that the rest of the year feels like you’re coasting downhill.

Sevan Matossian (17:07):

How many people will be there in total?

Chris Cooper (17:10):

Uh, well, 600 tickets anyway. Plus some vendors, some speakers. I mean, I’m, I’m bringing my staff because I want them to hear from other people and get really fired up about their job. And then what always happens is they come back and they’ve got their own ideas that they’ve picked up that they wanna run with. And I say, I’m taking the next month off. Great.

Sevan Matossian (17:29):

Yeah. That’s awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Well congratulations for doing that. And, and, and it’s interesting. Did you get a lot of, um, do you get a lot of thank yous?

Chris Cooper (17:40):

Yeah, I do. And I print them out and I stick them on a wall. Sometimes I need them, so,

Sevan Matossian (17:44):


Mattew Souza (17:45):

Yeah. That’s

Sevan Matossian (17:45):

Cool. By the way, I already know the next, uh, time I have you on, uh, why I’m gonna have you on yesterday when I was digging around on YouTube, I saw two videos that are both within the last three months, and I’m very curious what they are. And I didn’t send them to Suzy yet. I saw them late last night, but they’re basically, they’re sort of, um, I don’t know what they’re gonna be about, but it’s basic. One of them is how to take your business from $0 or how I took my business from $0 to $5 million in, in five years. Yeah. And I was looking at that and I’m like, wow, I haven’t seen Chris. Really? It was a more ambiguous space. Anyway, I, I saw you have an, and you have that video, and then you have another video that looks like it was similar, similarly titled to that. And, um, yeah, I’m excited to see those.

Chris Cooper (18:29):

We could, yeah, we could talk about that. But like, my mission right now is just to get, um, especially kids, but everybody thinking about entrepreneurship as a career choice. And so, uh, I have a new site called Businesses good.com, where I’m just presenting the perspective that they don’t see, you know, most of our kids are brought up in the Disney world where everybody with money is bad and everybody that’s bad has money. And like, entrepreneurs are rich because they took from other people and all this other stuff. So I’m part of my mission now is just like, give people entrepreneurial skill sets, um, or, or options. So we can talk about that another time for sure.

Sevan Matossian (19:07):

It sounds like a favorite subject. Subject of mine. Uh, the Burpee dude. Happy birthday, Audrey. Okay.

Chris Cooper (19:13):

Happy birthday Audrey. Congrats.

Sevan Matossian (19:15):

Happy birthday. You made it another, you made it <laugh>, uh, dog Dad, baby CrossFit. Is that really the name of your gym? No, CrossFit Fairway Park. Okay. <laugh>, uh, good morning. Thank you. From California. Wow, that’s a tough place to be. Thank you. Chris saved my gym. I owe him everything. Thank you, Chris. See you in June.

Chris Cooper (19:34):


Sevan Matossian (19:35):

Yeah, that is awesome. Um, I’m going, I wanna show you, uh, I promise you guys this show will get, um, going <laugh>. I wanna show you, uh,

Chris Cooper (19:47):

Is it

Sevan Matossian (19:47):

This video in the email? Did you want me to bring it up? Well, I’m at first I wanna show ’em this one. I saw this one this morning. This is a newborn baby. Um, I was just wondering if this is in any of your, can you see the screen okay, Chris? Yeah. This is a newborn baby, uh, and the father is, um, covering it with, uh, a hundred dollars bills. Is this talked about in any of your books for, uh, your entrepreneurial

Chris Cooper (20:09):

Status? Yeah, I, I mean, um, people own the Muslim faith whisper of prayer into their baby’s ear. I tell people, cover your baby in Hons

Sevan Matossian (20:18):

<laugh>. This is crazy. Hey, I heard that. I heard a, a stat that every hundred dollars bill in the United States has cocaine residue on it, <laugh>. And I just see that and I’m like, well, enough of those and the baby’s gonna get a bump. Okay? We can’t let Chris, we’re not done with you yet. <laugh>, by the way, I caught your joke. Science. Science, yes. Yeah.


Oh yeah. I, I caught your joke on the, uh, Khalifa podcast that, um, that, that I don’t think, uh, Jason caught where you talked about the ease of doing the open workouts. I wanna tell you, I I appreciated that. I don’t know if you remember that part, but you made, you made a No. Okay, fine. Uh, now, uh, this is a, uh, bizarre video. Some of you are not, most of, you’re not gonna understand why I’m showing Chris this, but you quickly will, uh, study Chris’s face closely as he sees this. See if he has it.

Chris Cooper (21:10):

I literally have this, I have this 20 feet from me.

Sevan Matossian (21:14):

This, this is, uh, when you, when you ball like Chris, these are the types of things that you purchase. <laugh>, you think Ferrari and shit? No. No. Uh,

Chris Cooper (21:24):

So I, I did bring that up on the Kpa podcast. Yes. And then I texted him a picture of it, like, oh, I don’t have that no <laugh>. That’s, that’s the kitten that was born and wrapped in a hundred dollars bills that buys the treadmill

Sevan Matossian (21:36):

<laugh>. And that’s the, uh, ghetto kitten. Hey, um, so is this a Canadian thing? Because your cat can’t go outside cuz it’s so cold. So you get, you just put a circle in the house.

Chris Cooper (21:44):

I mean, it’s literally snowing this morning and it’s April 26th. So, uh, it’s, it’s funny, I was skeptical when we got it, but she’ll run down there and meow until somebody comes to watch her. So it’s not just about doing it, it’s like, you know, if nobody took my picture, it doesn’t count. It’s very CrossFit <laugh>.

Sevan Matossian (22:01):

Alright. If you say, if you say so. Yeah. That thing is ama and your cat uses it.

Chris Cooper (22:06):

Yeah, yeah,

Sevan Matossian (22:08):

Yeah. Amazing.

Chris Cooper (22:09):

She probably just does it for the Instagram followers, but whatever. <laugh>. Right.

Sevan Matossian (22:13):

I wanna say, um, I wanna say what a stupid cat, but in, in probably a couple hours here, I’ll be running on one in my garage. It’s not a circle, but I guess I’m no smarter than the cat. Hey, it’s just so you know, um, it’s beach days here in California, so anyone who, uh, is, is hating on California, I understand the hatred, but, uh, it, today is a beach day after I get off the phone here with Mr. Uh, Cooper. Yeah.

Chris Cooper (22:38):

Jealous. Uh,

Sevan Matossian (22:41):

How many gyms, how many CrossFit gyms, if, if there are, let, let’s say there’s anywhere be, let’s say there’s 10,000 CrossFit gyms right now.

Chris Cooper (22:50):


Sevan Matossian (22:51):

How many since 2002 have failed?

Chris Cooper (22:56):

I, my best guess is half, but

Sevan Matossian (22:59):

I’m, let me rephrase that. Sorry. How many have closed down? I failed. Seems like Got it. How many Exactly. Yeah. How many have opened and closed down for and, and, and we know that a lot of ’em are because people deploy, people get divorces. Yeah. For what, you know, for whatever reason, how, um, uh, the, uh, there was the, uh, there was this thing where they tried to put masks on everyone for two years and stop people from going indoors. That thing happened. So how many gyms have closed down, do you think? Since 2002, CrossFit Gyms,

Chris Cooper (23:24):

My best guess is over 10,000. And it’s hard to figure that number out, but, uh, honestly, like there are ways that you can count affiliates and you can count affiliates that are actually open, um, by checking their websites and stuff like that. And we do that about every quarter so we get an accurate headcount. But, um, years ago, the first year that they all the affiliates on the wall at, uh, the CrossFit like affiliate thing at the games, it was interesting to look at like who wasn’t there anymore. And you know, from my perspective, that means that, uh, you know, unfortunately there’s about 10,000 affiliates who have closed. And it’s unfortunate not because that’s a failure, but because we haven’t been able to learn anything from them. There’s never been anybody saying like, what happened? Did you deploy, did you, you know, did you go to business because of masking mandates? Or did you,

Sevan Matossian (24:18):


Chris Cooper (24:20):

Chris think like, you know, that’s probably a gold mine. And unfortunately nobody’s asking the question. And also the, the culture up till this point has been such that, um, like nobody had everybody associates closing with failure. They don’t wanna fail, so they don’t tell you why. They’re like, no, I’m ascending in my career to real estate, or I’m, I’m retiring from gym ownership. And those things are valid absolutely. But I think we can learn from every single one of those and, uh, you know, really help the, the next generation of affiliates ascend. So,

Sevan Matossian (24:52):

Man, there’s a, there’s a lot, there’s a lot of things like that that you just said. I was thinking about when you said that about Jim’s closing and, and people being embarrassed. I was thinking about relationships too. When relationships are over, I think a lot of people are embarrassed, so they spend these negative stories, whether they’re with your wife, your best friend, and they, and they spend these stories that try to make them save face. Uh, but you probably don’t, you probably don’t learn from that. So yeah. So does there need to be a book How My Jim Failed? And is there a, is there a stereotypical failure story? Like, you know, how there’s like this, uh, the hero’s journey? Is there a stereotypical, um, gym failure story?

Chris Cooper (25:31):

Well, I think because most of us who open a gym are first time entrepreneurs, uh, there’s probably, uh, you know, 10,000 different failure stories. But the one thing they have in common is they all just ran outta time. So like, they, either they knew what they had to do to fix it, but they ran outta money and they just couldn’t hang in there long enough. Or possibly they were exhausted. I talk to owners all the time who say, I know what to do, but I just, I don’t have it in me to go through this for another three or four months. And really, if you track the, the people who closed down during masking mandates here in Canada where we had like a almost two straight years of lockdowns or mask mandates or whatever, uh, almost everyone that I spoke to said, I give up.


Not like I’m being forced to close. You know, some did run outta money and that was unfortunate, but, um, a lot of people were just so angry or exhausted or, you know, so that that’s it. You either run outta time or you run outta money or you run outta patience. It, and, you know, I’ve been luckily enough, um, brought into a few negotiations where gyms were being sold to other gyms. And typically what happens is if the person that’s selling hung in for three more months, uh, fixed their gym up to a point where it was attractive to a buyer, they could probably have gotten double what they actually got for it. But they just, they don’t see a way forward, right? They’ve, they’ve like run out of future. They can’t see a bright light at the end of the tunnel.

Sevan Matossian (26:58):

What, what about, um, and this is some like new age stuff, but what about the, just the fact that it’s not that, that they’re not, um, following their purpose,

Chris Cooper (27:07):

Like Yeah, that’s true too. Yeah.

Sevan Matossian (27:09):

Do, do you think that that’s often the case or No, you can’t, it’s not, I’m looking for like one generic story, you know, you know, like, like, um, I, I see someone with tattoos and, and running shoes and gage in their ear and they’re running down the street and they’re covering in tattoos and they have the big earrings and, and they’re really skinny and I think Yep. Former drug addict or you know, some, someone who’s been to AA and now they’re, they found long slow distance running and, and they’re, they’re working out their shit is there. And, and you’re probably right, I betcha seven out of 10 times, um, is, is there a story like that for, for Jim’s? Like it really wasn’t that person’s purpose?

Chris Cooper (27:43):

Well, for me I think it’s a misunderstanding of their purpose. So,

Sevan Matossian (27:47):


Chris Cooper (27:48):

For me, like I, I opened a gym thinking it was gonna do well because I was a really good coach. Or I thought I was a 10 outta town. I was probably a seven out of 10 out was a coach. But I thought, well, I’m a good coach. The next logical conclusion here is like, you know, open a gym. And what I didn’t understand was that I needed to become a really good business owner. Now, if you’ve been brought up in an environment where you see business ownership, wealth creation, entrepreneurship as evil, then that is not gonna align with your values that you picked up from your parents. And you’re always gonna be in conflict. When it comes time to ask somebody to pay you, you’re gonna have a real, you know, conscious or unconscious problem there when you have to raise rates or you realize you made a mistake and you’ve grandfathered clients, now you have to take that away. Like you’re gonna struggle on a very deep level and absolutely that could spike your gym.

Sevan Matossian (28:41):

Hey, so before you open a gym, what I heard you just say is you need to ask yourself the question, are you ready to make money? And as silly as that sounds, I know tons of people who fit that description of what you just said, they think being rich is evil. Like they see a fancy car drive by and they think bad, bad person. They don’t think, oh my god, that person must have worked so hard to get it.

Chris Cooper (29:06):

That’s right. Yeah. And that, that’s a cultural problem, right? Um, so well

Mattew Souza (29:11):

Gym ownership would be perfect for them cuz it won’t happen. So they’re fine.

Sevan Matossian (29:15):

<laugh>. Hey,

Chris Cooper (29:15):


Sevan Matossian (29:17):

Is that, do you think, do you think, um, me, I I I know you’re not a doctor, but do you think medically speaking, uh, that’s just unhealthy to, to see, do you think, is there any benefit in seeing someone who’s successful and poo poo them? Oh my,

Chris Cooper (29:31):

Well, I, I’m, I think what you’d call like an optimistic skeptic. And so I do, you know, if Susan rolls up today and is Orange, McLaren Yeah. And, and I’m gonna wonder where he got it. And, uh, I’m very skeptical of people especially online who are like posting pictures of themselves leaning on a Ferrari. I’m very skeptical of that. But once I know how they got there, then yeah, I’m, I’m their biggest fan, you know, as long as they didn’t have to steal from somebody else to get there.

The above transcript is generated using AI technology and therefore may contain errors.

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