#832 – Zack Telander | Exposing Liver King AND NickyRod??

Zack Telander (00:00):

Let’s go. Yeah. Yeah. This is, uh, this is it. This is where the magic happens right here.

Sevan Matossian (00:04):

<laugh>. Cool.

Mattew Souza (00:05):


Zack Telander (00:07):

Matt, I don’t think I’ve met you.

Mattew Souza (00:09):


Zack Telander (00:10):

Let’s go.

Sevan Matossian (00:12):

Okay. I was thinking about Zach, this, how we start

Zack Telander (00:13):

Is this, how we’re starting it.

Sevan Matossian (00:15):

I, I kind of wanna, I was telling Matt that I want to, um, get this audio.

Zack Telander (00:19):

Okay. This is the thong song already. I know I have that good of recall. <laugh>,

Mattew Souza (00:23):

Steve <laugh>.

Sevan Matossian (00:24):

I, I wanna get this audio. So like, we’re 800 shows in and we don’t have like, anything fancy, like, we don’t have an audio or not. But I was thinking I should start every show with like 30 seconds of this. Let’s do think, I think I’d get in trouble for this.

Zack Telander (00:39):

Here we go.

Sevan Matossian (00:40):

What? My

Zack Telander (00:41):

Press play. You won’t. Okay. I got you. Ready. Welcome everybody to Theon podcast with your host

Sevan Matossian (00:56):

And then, and then, uh, Caleb, do an audio like cheer. Can you do like, wait, I know I have a button here somewhere.

Mattew Souza (01:06):

I’ll give a, I’ll give a, I’ll

Sevan Matossian (01:09):

Give a damn. I know I had like, isn’t it? Do we have something?

Zack Telander (01:18):

Oh, the bang. Good morning. Morning.

Sevan Matossian (01:22):

Will I get in trouble if I play, like if I, no.

Zack Telander (01:25):

Cuz a lot of times these people don’t have copyrighted shit. Um, I’ve found that, dude, I’ve got some hacks to using co copyrighted music on YouTube, but I always credit the artist who like does it, who does it, you know? Gosh, if I, if I use like, little segments,

Sevan Matossian (01:43):

So I’d have to, okay,

Zack Telander (01:44):

Dude, play my theme song. Go to go to, um, go here.

Sevan Matossian (01:50):

Www z Calendar. No, it’s calendar. Go

Zack Telander (01:53):

To calendar. A lift Companion episode. Um, so just go, go to my, uh, YouTube channel.

Sevan Matossian (02:00):

Zach, am I pronouncing your last name right? Tel

Zack Telander (02:02):

Calendar? Yes.

Sevan Matossian (02:03):

Okay. Andrew had to school me yesterday.

Zack Telander (02:07):

I’m happy to be here, guys.

Sevan Matossian (02:09):

Dude, I’m stoked you’re here too. Yeah.

Zack Telander (02:11):

Thanks for coming.

Sevan Matossian (02:12):

I thought you were, um, I, I thought you were blowing me off. And then, um,

Zack Telander (02:17):

Uh, yeah, so if we go to, this is fine. This is a lift companion episode. Uh, yeah. Press play. You’ll hear my theme song.

Speaker 4 (02:25):

Bt Programmer,

Zack Telander (02:26):

I got this from a guy on

Speaker 4 (02:27):

Talk. Is programming really that important? Will Dylan and Zach finally shave off their mustaches that and much more in this episode of Lift Companion

Zack Telander (02:39):

<laugh>? Listen to this theme, dude.

Sevan Matossian (02:45):

This from that movie Drive?

Zack Telander (02:46):

No, dude, this guy made this song and it’s our song now. You can see lift, compete lift, companion theme at the bottom.

Sevan Matossian (02:58):

Oh, it’s kind of funky, right?

Zack Telander (03:01):

Yeah. That’s the name of the guy. Kind of funky, right? On TikTok. He, so I’m like, I dmd him. I’m like, dude, your music is amazing. Can you make us a song for Lift Companion? He’s like, yeah, what are you looking for? I’m like, well, I’m gonna gotta be honest with you. This song that you made is amazing. He said, take it. I’m like, fuck yeah, dude.

Sevan Matossian (03:18):


Zack Telander (03:19):

So that’s our theme song now for our little show that we do. And, uh, the show that we do is like, I, I’m, people are gonna start copying it. I know it, and that’s totally fine. I’m, we’re just gonna get better. But what we do is we just mic up and we just fucking lift and, and, um, we’ve had, we had a comedian on, it was so funny. We had this, uh, we had Nicki Rodriguez, who’s a Jiujitsu guy. Um, we’ve had Chris Williamson.

Sevan Matossian (03:47):

Oh, I love Nicki. Was he was, he wasn’t wearing underwear. I bet. Did you see his penis flopping around in there? <laugh>. I love Nicki. Rod <laugh>. Honestly, did you see the outline of his penis?

Zack Telander (03:58):

<laugh>? No, I, I’m sorry, I wasn’t paying attention to that.

Sevan Matossian (04:01):

You’re tall. Hey, it’s right at eye level for me. Oh, there it is. There it is. Yeah. <laugh>, I’m telling you, homie’s got a fucking sock. You

Zack Telander (04:09):

Guys are quick on the draw here. I love this. You guys are quick on the, anytime we make any references, Savan, you’re quick on this. Or is, who’s doing these?

Sevan Matossian (04:18):

I ca Oh, you can’t. Sam, Caleb.

Zack Telander (04:20):

Oh, Caleb. Caleb.

Sevan Matossian (04:21):

I would show you him, but then I’d have to kill him. Hey,

Zack Telander (04:23):

Caleb, stay involved, man. Get like, literally every word I say, have a fucking page ready for me. You know.

Sevan Matossian (04:31):

Hey, Zack. So he said he, you heard it, you heard the song and he said, Hey, just take it.

Zack Telander (04:36):

Yeah. I was like, uh, it’s Colton Merton’s. Holy shit. Is that actually Colton Merton’s, the co. Colton Merton’s. The

Sevan Matossian (04:42):

Colton. And he’s actually pretty smart. He usually doesn’t, but I should be. What’s up to you, bro? <laugh>?

Zack Telander (04:47):

Um, so, uh, yeah, so I, I DMed the guy. I’m like, this is amazing shit. And no one really knew about him. Like, he’s kind of big on TikTok and, uh, yeah, I was like, dude, make me anything. And he, he’s like, no. Like, what, what type of stuff do you like? I’m like, this one that you just made is a fucking fire. He is like, I’ll send you the, the, uh, let’s see if we can find which one it is. Um, Hey,

Sevan Matossian (05:10):

That’s a great idea for a show. Why hasn’t anyone done that before? You, it’s just micd up guys working out.

Zack Telander (05:16):

Yeah. So basically what happens is, like,

Sevan Matossian (05:18):

I watched the Nicki Rod episode where you passed the, the d d uh, DJ I Around.

Zack Telander (05:24):

Yeah. Yeah. Because, uh, we were, we, we,

Sevan Matossian (05:27):

I and Hayden, I ain’t Hayden. Yeah.

Zack Telander (05:28):

We should have had a, we we had some technical difficulties, but yeah, we’re, um, that’s our thing now. Um, but yeah, the, the song theme song guy gave it to us and we’re, we’ve been stoking ever since about it. It’s been awesome.

Sevan Matossian (05:40):

I’m not even making this up. I’m not even stealing this from you. But yesterday I was walking around my house in the middle of the afternoon Naked. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And my wife said the exact same thing you said to that, to that dj. That’s amazing. <laugh>. And I res and I responded the same way the DJ did. Well just take it <laugh>. Just take it.

Zack Telander (05:58):

I’m not gonna give you even a a, I’m not even going to raise parts of my mouth to Smile Sivan. That’s, she’s, she’s, I’m not even

Sevan Matossian (06:07):

Allison nyc. Who is this? I like him already.

Mattew Souza (06:11):

Oh. Just made Allison.

Zack Telander (06:12):

Allison. Um, yeah. Yeah.

Sevan Matossian (06:15):

Right’s. You just gotta,

Zack Telander (06:16):

You just gotta search my name. YouTube, Zach telling her <laugh>, <laugh>

Sevan Matossian (06:26):

Z. Take it all in. Zach, take it all in before I pull our name down. There you go. Okay. Um, you popped up on my radar mm-hmm. <affirmative> during the, um, during the, uh, sad and, uh, exciting and exhilarating, uh, uh, and ex and positive, uh, well, it’s not sad, I guess rebirth of, uh, my friend Brian Johnson.

Zack Telander (06:50):

Ah, Brian Johnson. Yeah.

Sevan Matossian (06:53):

And, and

Zack Telander (06:54):

Who, whom you’ve had on the show, correct.

Sevan Matossian (06:56):


Zack Telander (06:57):


Sevan Matossian (06:58):

He cried here.

Zack Telander (07:00):

Um, wow. Interesting.

Sevan Matossian (07:02):

Yeah, he shed a tear. It happens now and again. Do

Zack Telander (07:05):

You wanna go in or do you wanna go into that?

Sevan Matossian (07:07):

If you want to. I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m, I love talking about everything. I’ll subscribe to yours if you subscribe to mine,

Zack Telander (07:14):


Sevan Matossian (07:16):

Hey, dude, that’s such a fair deal.

Zack Telander (07:18):

That is. Should I, should I share my screen? Okay.

Sevan Matossian (07:20):

Sure. Share what? Share whatever

Zack Telander (07:22):

You, how do, how do I share screen?

Sevan Matossian (07:24):

Um, if you

Mattew Souza (07:25):

Click the little present button, I think there’s like a tv. It’s like a plus. Ah,

Zack Telander (07:28):

Yeah. Present

Sevan Matossian (07:31):

Is uncle, uh, is Uncle Laer. Hunter McIntyre’s doppelganger. Who? This cat right here is Zach. He doesn’t look like Hunter.

Zack Telander (07:38):

Oh, uncle Laser is, uh, he’s a guest that I had on. Oh. Oh, that

Mattew Souza (07:42):

Dude. You should play the clip when he talks about

Zack Telander (07:44):


Sevan Matossian (07:44):

Oh yeah. The short. Yeah. He’s like a short hunter. Yeah.

Zack Telander (07:48):

Can you guys see my screen? Yeah. Yeah.

Mattew Souza (07:49):

I’ll pull it up. Okay. You got it. You just bring it in the show. There it is.

Zack Telander (07:54):

Oh. All right. Sorry, sorry, sorry. Alison nyc, I don’t see you anywhere. Oh,

Mattew Souza (07:59):

Wrong platform, brother

Zack Telander (08:01):


Sevan Matossian (08:01):

Oh, you only see it? Oh, only thing. Only thing. Yeah.

Zack Telander (08:04):

I won’t be doing that

Sevan Matossian (08:07):

All. God, you’re a dick already, Zach.

Zack Telander (08:10):

All right. Okay. Uh, off to a hot, hot start. Sivan. Oh, welcome to the show, <laugh>. So, so what are we getting into here? Are we getting into the, uh, Brian Johnson lore, or what do you want? What do you want for me? Sure.

Sevan Matossian (08:26):

Um, I just wanna say this, uh, yesterday when you answered your phone, that was really cool, by the way. Oh. And, and, and I’ve never done that in a show. 800 shows in where I call random people online. I’ve always kind of been opposed to it. I thought like there was something maybe like ethically or immoral to call someone and they not know we’re live. But then I did you and then I got on a roll and I did Danielle, Brandon, and it was, I was two for two, and I was just like, it really made my day that you answered. Yeah. But what happened was someone in the comment said, Hey, you should get Zack calendar on. And so I just pretended like you weren’t coming on today. And like that I had your phone number acted all like a big shot. And then when you answered, I was like, fuck, this is, this bit’s slain <laugh>

Mattew Souza (09:06):

Go lane.

Zack Telander (09:07):

I’ll do literally anything to partake in a bit. By the way, <laugh>, I will go the distance. I will like shave my head just for a fucking two second laugh from a stranger that I don’t even know.

Sevan Matossian (09:20):

Me too. Isn’t laughing great. It’s

Zack Telander (09:22):

The best dude I like. So, uncle Laser. Uh, we’ll, we’ll sidetrack, before we get into Liver King. Uncle Laser’s a great comedian, uh, Caleb, pull him up on, on, uh, yeah. Oh yeah. Oh my fucking God, dude. Th this isn’t even the funny one. Go to his, go to Uncle Laser’s. Um,

Sevan Matossian (09:40):

Does he live

Zack Telander (09:41):

Near you Instagram? Yeah, he lives in Austin. I’m, I’m, I’m getting him on my podcast on Sun on Sunday or something. All right, so go down, keep going, keep going, keep going. You’ll see where he’s in the gym with, with us.

Sevan Matossian (09:54):

He’s a Bob Marley fan. I love Bob.

Zack Telander (09:56):

There we go. This one. So, uh, maybe it might be the next one. That one has 4.5 million views. Last time I checked, holy shit, that, wait, that one has 2002, 203,000 likes, but 4.5 million views. Anyways,

Sevan Matossian (10:14):

My entire Instagram account has that many likes, like, yeah, cumulatively.

Zack Telander (10:17):

So this is the video that we did with him. Anyways, this guy is so pure of heart that when we, we ha I’ve hung out with him a bunch, like at the bars and, and just going out. He is like, any time that there’s tension between a group, like at all, like it, let’s say boys are talking shit and then it gets a little bit heightened. He just comes in and does like clown like jest type of shit to make everyone laugh and make everyone feel good. All he wants all the time is for everyone to feel good. Like, that’s it.

Sevan Matossian (10:49):

It’s Nobel Peace Prize. It’s

Zack Telander (10:51):

Part of his like core. It’s who he is, and it’s so palpable, dude, he’s such a good hang. Everything you see in play this video, but everything you see in this video is who he is. A hundred percent

Mattew Souza (11:08):

Good. Yeah. Did you smash it? Smash your dick.

Speaker 7 (11:12):

I know, I’ve, I’ve been smashing it every time. It’s, it’s, it’s incredible right now. Try to avoid it. Well, you know, I’ve been smashing my dick my whole life, dude. You know, I’ve been running into walls and shit, you know, it’s fine, baby. We’re gonna be okay. Okay. So I’ve built up a callous <laugh>.

Mattew Souza (11:28):

Okay, so <laugh>. So we’re gonna, so we’re gonna, um,

Speaker 7 (11:37):

It’s, it’s alright. I’m actually wearing a condom right now. <laugh>. So that’s the thing, you know, protection.

Zack Telander (11:45):

That’s it. <laugh>, that was a typical exchange during that video, but, uh, yeah, so, so that’s Uncle Laser. He does look like he’s got the mul mullet that Hunter McIntyre does. Um,

Sevan Matossian (11:57):

Are you friends with Hunter?

Zack Telander (11:58):

No, I don’t. I don’t know him. I’ve got a bunch of mutual friends, but, um,

Sevan Matossian (12:03):

The world is getting really small, don’t you think?

Zack Telander (12:05):

Super small. Dude. Sivan. I used to watch your old ass shit from, from, uh, like early CrossFit, YouTube days.

Sevan Matossian (12:16):

How old are you?

Zack Telander (12:17):


Sevan Matossian (12:19):

God, you look so young. You know who you, you’re like, you’re like Vince Vaughn, if he, if he got hit with the Hot Stick <laugh>.

Zack Telander (12:28):

I’ve gotten the Vince Vaughn shit a lot too, because I am balding. So I have like, you know, I’ve got pretty bad hairline. Um, and I’ve got a fucking 17 head and I’ve gotten the Vince Vaughn thing, but yeah, I look like

Sevan Matossian (12:39):

Andrew, you’re huge. You are really fucking big. I saw you stay next to Nicki Ron

Zack Telander (12:44):

Vaughn, although he looks pretty rough there, bro.

Sevan Matossian (12:46):

Yeah, that’s what I mean. I mean, you’re like the attractive version of Vince Vaughn. Oh,

Zack Telander (12:50):

That’s, um, that he’s pretty attractive there, dude,

Sevan Matossian (12:53):

As a young man. Well, then it’s only downhill for you. Hey, how was that? Um, how was that? God, there’s so many questions about, but are we

Zack Telander (13:01):

Gonna do Liver King? Are we okay?

Sevan Matossian (13:02):

Okay, sure. Let’s do

Zack Telander (13:03):

Liver King. Okay. You guys want me to take you down the, the road here,

Sevan Matossian (13:05):

Please, please. Okay.

Zack Telander (13:07):

So, um, I did a video on Liver King, like right as he was kind of blowing up, uh, there, I think he had probably like 250,000 followers at this point. Um, and the question that I brought up was, do these guys who claim natural or don’t say anything at all, are they really doing that much damage? Um, is it really like that altruistic of us to call these natural or, uh, these fake nats out and, um, get the truth? And that was something that I pondered that was like my ethical dilemma that I had gone through, and that was my original video. Uh, fast forward a little bit, liver King’s passed my mind. I’ve been making tons of videos at this point. And, um, Derek from More Plates, more Dates, he’s got a very successful YouTube channel he’s been on. Rob, what was

Sevan Matossian (14:00):

Your conclusion in that video?

Zack Telander (14:02):

Uh, I, it was kind of like, I don’t know, you know, um, I have this theory where we are at a place with, uh, you know, hormones and performance enhancing drugs similar to where the, you remember the dare parts of drug use, like when the DARE program, where, um, that was kind of a failure where we’re trying to figure out like, how do we talk about recreational drugs? Well, if we, if we talk about it with abstinence, it’s not gonna work that well. Um, and it’s the same thing with sex. Um, probably the sex around like the sixties, or sorry, the fifties. Um, we were, it was like abstinence if you, uh, and, and there there was a kind of a resurgence of abstinence, I think in the eighties. I’m not entirely sure, but if we talk about it on the lines of like, sex is gonna kill you, you’re gonna get an t d or you’re gonna have a kid, or whatever.


Um, th that’s not a positive way of thinking. We’ve, we’ve shown that over time. Well, we’re at the point with, uh, hormones where we’re kind of like edging past that turnover where we’re like, the stigma’s kind of going away a little bit. Um, but it’s still just like this unknown. And we think at least the entirety of the internet thinks that if the Rock comes out and says, Hey guys, I’ve, I’m on T R t or I’m taking this, this and this, that, that’s gonna be a good thing. Like, that’s gonna provide some solace for people out there when in reality it could, and this is just a potential here, it could be somewhat of a negative thing. And Mark Bell, who’s a good friend of mine, uh, also has a really big podcast Mark Bell Power Project. He was saying, we were talking about this on his podcast and he was saying that, you know, it’s like somebody saying, Hey, last night I went to the bar, got shitfaced and banged a 10 out of 10, but kids don’t drink and don’t go out to bars.


<laugh>, a guy is gonna hear that and be like, and the last part is gonna not even exist. Even you could say like, you are going to lose two years, three years off your life, but I banged at 10. Every fucking 18 year old on planet Earth is gonna go do that thing. So if the Rock says, Hey, I started taking t r t at this time, uh, an 18 year old’s gonna be like, I’m not waiting until I’m, you know, 35, whatever, I’m going to get on gear right away. It’s this truthfulness that we think is gonna work out, but might not. And that’s just a little theory that I have that can be argued other way, the other way. I’m not entirely set on that, but I think it’s important in bringing that in. That’s a, a total aside, uh, thing as far as the Liver King, uh, you know, saga goes.

Sevan Matossian (16:50):

Do you know who Michael Kaju is?

Zack Telander (16:52):

Yes, I do. I know a d better actually than, than Michael. Um, I met a Dee back in like 2015 or something, but

Sevan Matossian (16:58):

He was on here the other day and he wa he read the Red Hot Chili Pepper Lead Singer’s book that was supposed to be like a rehab story that got you not to do drugs, but he read it and it got him to shoot up drugs cuz it sounded so fun in the book

Zack Telander (17:10):

<laugh>, I mean like the DARE Program <laugh>. So yeah, like the DARE program. The the thing, the crazy thing about Dare Right? Is like, okay, if you tell me that if I start smoking weed, I will become a heroin addict in three years or whatever the time is. Uh, and let’s just say one of my dumb ass friends has some weed and I’m fucking frightened by it. I watch my friends smoke weed and then the next day we go to lacrosse practice and he scores five goals. I don’t think smoking weed is that bad, right? Okay. What else are the parents lying about? Right. You know? So now I, now in my mind you did the opposite. You did so far the opposite of what you should have done, which was said, you know what b what like negative aspects of this thing are when you eventually try or when it comes up, you know?


Um, but anyways, fast forward a little bit, Derek from More Plates, more dates, he actually DMed me and this is, this is much faster forward. He’s like, um, Hey man, I really like your stuff. I like the way that you make these kind of essay style videos. Uh, you and your editor have something really good going here at that time. I mean, I’m still a pretty small channel compared to, you know, what he has. And he is like, uh, this is a guy that you’ve already covered before. And, um, I have, I have some pretty interesting information and uh, I want to, you know, if you’re interested, let’s do it. I’m like, okay, what, who is it? He’s like Liver King. Um, and I have some exchanges with him and a body building coach wherein he explains the drugs that he’s been taking and he has the blood work, uh, to support that.


And I’m like, wow, we’ve got quite the smoking gun here, Derek. So what I did was that night I stayed up till like three or four in the morning making the outline for that video. So 40 I, I plan, I, I wonder if I still have the outline. I don’t know, somewhere. Um, but I planned it down to the minute what we were gonna do. Um, and I, and I sent it to him as like a proposal and he said, this is, this looks great, let’s get cracking on it. And we actually sat on that for like two or three months and Oh shit. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Because, because Derek has like four different businesses and I’m like, you know, I’m inching. I’m like, let’s go, let’s go, let’s go. That’s the type of person I am. I’m like, you want to do something? Let’s do it right now.


I’m ready. And it would suck if someone else broke the story, cuz that was a huge story. Right? Right. No one was going to, we, we was, we were one of three people to know me and, you know, so what was happening at the same time that, that we were sitting on it though was like some of the most famous shit that, that Brian Johnson was being a part of. And I think namely the UFC thing, I always bring this up, but I think this is where he was really at the pinnacle of his pop culture kind of facade, um, was at ufc. They’re like, oh look, there’s Halle Berry and there is, you know, George Clooney and oh, there’s the Liver King. And you’re like, whoa, dude. Like this guy is now trans. He’s, you know, leapfrogged into pop culture and like getting on every podcast and, and doing everything.


He was everywhere, you know? And um, we were sitting on this thing where we knew what we were gonna do. Eventually it came down, uh, and we spent probably, I mean, I remember one session where we got, we, we got on Zoom and we stayed on Zoom. We, we got on Zoom at like noon my time, and then we got off of Zoom at like 9:00 PM we were literally on for nine hours straight working on this, on this script. Um, and what we were gonna do when we press publish, we knew the thing was gonna explode. Um, but it exploded. So that <laugh> Derek was here in Austin. It was so funny. He was here in Austin, he was doing Rogan. So me and him, we went to the gym.

Sevan Matossian (21:19):

Is that the first time you met him in person?

Zack Telander (21:21):

Yeah. And we went to the gym and I literally, me and Derek walked up to the front desk and we were just saying like, blah, blah, blah. We were just talking to the front desk and I don’t know what came up, but the front desk, I was like, yeah, and like the, something like blah, blah, blah Liver King. Right. Because the, the name Liver King and the scandal was so big at this point that people were just trying to like, make jokes and shit like you would about Biden or whatever.

Sevan Matossian (21:49):

Right? Right. They

Zack Telander (21:50):

Did. He didn’t know that Derek and I were the fucking creators of that

Sevan Matossian (21:54):

From 15 minutes earlier before it published <laugh>, right before you headed there <laugh>.

Zack Telander (21:59):

So, so, well it was like, it was like probably two days, but they didn’t even, the people in the gym got their information from bars, stool sports got it from, you know, fucking Vanity Fair from Rolling Stone. Like they didn’t get it from Derek for more plates, war dates. And Zach Kellend, that’s how, that was the craziest thing. Like, I actually didn’t get that much exposure from this thing and I

Sevan Matossian (22:23):

Watched it and I didn’t even know you made it until Joe Rogans until I saw that Joe Rogan clip on your Instagram account. Right.

Zack Telander (22:29):

Because it just went, it popped up and then everyone took it. Right. Which is fine. I I don’t care. Right. Like, it was just crazy to be a part of something like that. Um, so, so yeah,

Sevan Matossian (22:41):

The way I, the way I heard the story is he, he, hi, Derek hired you to edit the Charlatan piece,

Zack Telander (22:48):

So, so yeah. So, um,

Sevan Matossian (22:51):

But you outlined the whole thing

Zack Telander (22:53):

Pretty much. Yeah, but Derek, I mean there was a point where like, I was like, Hey man, are we gonna do this thing still? Like, because he was busy doing shit and then he spent like, like an ungodly amount of time writing this script for his parts, which is, you know, a decent massive chunk. Right? And then him and my editor and I were just going, bing, bing, bing, just like trying to figure this thing out, getting draft after draft after draft. But like, he definitely, I mean he put in a fuckload of work for this thing, like serious amounts of work. That’s

Sevan Matossian (23:29):

Four. That’s exactly what I was looking for, Caleb. 4.7 million views.

Zack Telander (23:34):

Oh no. On an hour long video too. That’s the, that’s the wild part, right?

Sevan Matossian (23:37):

Absolutely. Nuts, dude. It’s crazy. It’s nuts.

Zack Telander (23:41):

Um, and we just, we knew it was gonna bang, we just, we knew it. But anyways,

Sevan Matossian (23:45):

I bet you it has crazy retention time too.

Zack Telander (23:48):

My conclusion to to all of this is actually, uh, quite sympathetic to, uh, Brian Johnson. And

Sevan Matossian (23:57):

Have you met him yet?

Zack Telander (23:58):

No, I haven’t. Um, but I, like,

Sevan Matossian (24:05):

I didn’t expect you to say that.

Zack Telander (24:06):

I’ve said this on, on other podcasts before that

Sevan Matossian (24:09):

Like, please then say this something I, something’s new, fresh, something fresh, please for seven podcast. Put a

Zack Telander (24:13):

Twist on it. I’m, I’m, I’m very, I’m a very empathetic person and, and it’s almost, it is likely to a fault if somebody can like, look me in the eyes and be genuinely sad, like, there’s nothing I can do. I have to take them back. It’s just how I, it’s just, I have to do it. And I feel as though like, deep down there’s a person inside of Brian Johnson who I just haven’t seen, um, that is, is upset and also incredibly, deeply flawed. And the reason why that’s so effective to me is cuz I feel that deep down there’s a person inside Zach Calendar who’s upset and deeply flawed and working on these things. And what happens is he, he was so, he was so large, um, both figuratively and literally that this idea of this person struggling inside him, he could easily just shove it down and replace it with this fame. And, uh, that’s what happened. And, you know, um,

Sevan Matossian (25:18):

You may have saved his life. You and Derek may have saved his life. Yeah. Like set him free. That video could have save him, dude. You may have Yeah,

Zack Telander (25:25):

Dude, we were sitting there and I was like, you know what, man? Like this guy honestly probably has some sort of sense of relief now, you know? Fuck

Sevan Matossian (25:33):


Zack Telander (25:34):

And, and, um, and honest to God, like I don’t, it’s, it’s tough, right? Because I, I think I I went after his character and who he is as a person. Yeah.

Sevan Matossian (25:47):

To tell you the truth, the part you made was the part that kind of, um, frustrated me the most just because I I know him. Right. You know what I mean? Like, I, I text with him and I’m, I would say I’m friends with him and that part hurt me because when he originally came on my podcast, I wanted him on, before he was the liver king, I tried to bring him on as Brian Johnson before he even had the Liver King Instagram account because I knew that he, I had heard the stories that he had saved his kids’ lives through a carnivore diet. And that’s where I was kind of barking and he said, Hey, I’m way too shy and I don’t know how to talk in public, right? So, so and so when I saw him go down this other route and I saw him call a charlatan, that fucking, that, that stung me. I’m, I’m not hating on you, by the way. I get it. Yes.

Zack Telander (26:26):

I hate, by the way, Sivan, I’m a, you know, a grown ass man and I can take disagreement and take people criticizing me and, and because I’m my own biggest cri critic, so I don’t, I don’t mind at all.

Sevan Matossian (26:37):

And it was like beautiful edit <laugh>. It was a great video. Brutal.

Zack Telander (26:41):

So, so look, look, my thing with the charlatans, uh, is that there is a point, it’s like a a an event horizon where there’s no turning back where you become the charlatan and before that you’re just a salesman. You’re just making a buck like Elizabeth Holmes. What would you say about her? Yes, exactly. She, wait, she put like, she started off good and then got, but there is a turning point. Yes. There is a turning point at which you can make things right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and not be a charlatan and you just go past it and you just solidify yourself. That’s what happened with Brian Johnson. Yes. He probably absolutely is onto something here with this way of life. He absolutely has helped his children. Um, he’s an incredibly motivating guy. He, he, he stands for so much and he does the right thing so many times, but the lie became just as important, if not more important, to what made him famous as the thing that he wanted to make him famous fucking great point.


That’s mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And that’s what made him the charlatan. That’s I, Derek and I sat on this thing and we’re like, look, you could right now, Derek, just pull up the emails, read ’em one take this will get 3 million views. Yeah. But if you wanna make a difference and change things, we have to talk about how the liver king and the lie enveloped with each other and the process at which it happened because it will happen again. It has happened in the past. It will continue to fucking happen. And I was, I sat with this for a long time. I was like, how the fuck are we going to do this? One of the things he said was, I want to be at this level of fame at this time. Uhhuh, <affirmative>, when you say that, when you utter that, when you put that into the universe, you are essentially saying that the message is not important.


It is the place, it is where that this, this marker is important to me. So by doing so, like you are, you’re circumventing all of the things that you actually cared about, and you are becoming this, uh, this caricature you’re becoming this, you know, we called them a w w e fight, you know, actor essentially. And, and all that’s left behind is the charlatanism. Yeah. The thing, the, the, the tenets, if you will, of, uh, charlatans are the sacred knowledge in group outgroup, um, and, and salesmanship and, and, uh, there’s a few others that I have in there. Like jargon is a really good one. Um, weaponized specificity is another term that I came up with. That’s another good one. But those are the things that like in the right formula, done the right way that the law for, for a long enough time. That’s what makes you a charlatan. And Brian Johnson, sadly enough, did all of those things and I was able to point out every single way in which he did it. Right. It’s like at some point you’re like, you’re sitting there make, doing these things as a charlatan. At some point you’re like, nah, fuck it, we’ll just do it anyways. You know, my audience isn’t really real. There’s three me.

The above transcript is generated using AI technology and therefore may contain errors.

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