#708 – Legends Championships Programming Show w/ JR Howell and Taylor Self

Sevan Matossian (00:00):

Shaved. It is the first time I shaved in two weeks. Bam. We’re live two minutes early so we can talk about anything except what this show is about until the show starts in two minutes. How you doing jr? What’s up Jr? You didn’t pay your electricity bill.

Taylor Self (00:15):

It’s so bad in here, dude. It’s so bad.

Sevan Matossian (00:18):

What’s up buddy? What’s

Taylor Self (00:20):


Sevan Matossian (00:20):

In hot? What? You were jealous cuz Taylor’s picture always looks like ass and you wanted to compete with it. You’re like, I’ll show him what?

Taylor Self (00:25):

Okay. Should I turn that light back on

Sevan Matossian (00:28):

<laugh>? No, no,

Taylor Self (00:29):

Definitely don’t do that. <laugh>

Sevan Matossian (00:32):

Matthew Sues a straight from the gym, uh, Taylor Self from self-made training program. The best I am now convinced. The best training program in. How do

Taylor Self (00:43):

You know? How

Sevan Matossian (00:44):

Do you know how, uh, because I’ve been reading the reviews and I’ve been talking to a lot of people and I’ve been asking, are you guys blowing smoke? And uh,

Taylor Self (00:49):

Can I send you, can I send you a link to it? Yeah. So you can do it for free.

Sevan Matossian (00:53):

Oh, will you gimme, is it, do you have a scale 50 year old version?

Taylor Self (00:57):

We’re gonna talk about that tonight, but okay,

Sevan Matossian (01:00):

Let’s just start there right now. Does your, does your program what, what if I’m, what I’m,

Taylor Self (01:04):

I offer scales for everything. So like, let me, uh, for example, if you,

Sevan Matossian (01:07):

I’m terrified to get injured, but I want my heart rate high and I wanna just work on my guns a little.

Taylor Self (01:12):

My goal is to injure you. Um,

Sevan Matossian (01:14):

<laugh>. Hey, my goal is to wear a tank top one day when jr’s on the show.

Taylor Self (01:19):


Sevan Matossian (01:20):

This is shave my back and my shoulders and come on with a tank top. And everyone ready.

Taylor Self (01:23):

This is really janky, but if you pull the app, it’s 20 bucks a month. You pull the app up and this is a day you have competitive class and then the notes for each. And if you pull the notes up, I have like, basically equipment substitutes, movement scales loading and volume scales.

Sevan Matossian (01:40):

I’m on it. Yeah. Do it. Me and my wife will do it and my kids will do it.

Taylor Self (01:44):


Sevan Matossian (01:45):

Yeah, a hundred percent. Send me and I can call you if like, if there’s a piece of equipment I don’t have or something, I’ll just call you and be like, yo.

Taylor Self (01:50):

Yeah, everyone, I, I mean so many people DM me or message me or text me and ask and I try to be like, you know, within minutes responsive about it. I think a lot of people in the, maybe some people in the comments who do the program can speak to that. But I, you know, I try to give as much coaching as you can get. I mean, yeah, I try to give as much coaching as you can give via like an online platform. People send videos and stuff and I, you know, try to correct

Sevan Matossian (02:14):

As much as I want people to start accusing me of doing, uh, being on California hormones mad or not really wanna be accused

Taylor Self (02:21):

Of that. Mad. Here’s what you gotta do doing. We’ve got a coal plunge. I’ve been getting in it every morning for, for four minutes and then going right into cardio. How cold? How cold? How cold? 40 degrees. So it’s not like the coldest in the world, but Oh, fuck you dude. You can’t tell the difference between 40 and 35. Dude, there’s no difference. You’re dick. Yeah,

Sevan Matossian (02:40):

He can. That’s the way, that’s the way his wife treats him. His wife

Taylor Self (02:42):

Keeps the temperature

Sevan Matossian (02:44):

Around between, yeah. 35 and forties an expert

Taylor Self (02:48):

Whim. H over here, dude. Yeah. Well my dick’s getting bigger. Okay. It’s already grown in four days. <laugh>.

Sevan Matossian (02:54):

Oh, but but what, what are the implications of doing that? Ice bathing and going straight into a

Taylor Self (02:58):

Workout. There’s a study, there’s a, a study in Japan in the nineties that doing cold exposure right into, um, low resistance cardio, specifically on a bike.

Sevan Matossian (03:07):


Taylor Self (03:07):

You. Spiked testosterone levels. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and luteinizing hormone and, you know,

Sevan Matossian (03:11):

It’s true. And that, and that’s what all I could do. Or else I’d hurt myself. Sorry, go ahead Susie.

Mattew Souza (03:14):

No, I was gonna say, you know, it’s true cuz when you think Japanese you think really high cardio Natasha Tesone level. So

JR Howell (03:20):


Sevan Matossian (03:21):

<laugh> racist. Hey, is it bugging anyone that I’m not centered? This is the first time I’ve been in the studio in, in two weeks and I’m not,

Taylor Self (03:29):

Somebody said I looked like a light bulb when I take my hat off. So this would, does this improve the lighting

Sevan Matossian (03:33):

<laugh>? No. He’s a thumb. He’s a thumb

JR Howell (03:36):

Taylor to Do you know what LH does? Do you know what LT hormone

Taylor Self (03:40):

Is? No. I don’t know shit about that. I just saw it on Rogan and got a boner. That’s a great word.

JR Howell (03:43):


Sevan Matossian (03:44):

It’s Scott Schweitzer. Dale Media high. Good evening. Go ahead J It’s,

JR Howell (03:46):

It’s a very important sex hormone in females.

Taylor Self (03:49):

Cool. Is it, what is it?

Sevan Matossian (03:51):

What is it called? Is it an,

Taylor Self (03:52):

Is called important hormone’s

Sevan Matossian (03:54):

Interest? Yeah. What what’s it called? I’m a, let’s Google that

JR Howell (03:57):

Lutin hormone. Taylor was

Sevan Matossian (03:59):

Too, my wife’s got too much of that way. Too much of that.

JR Howell (04:01):

He was singing the praises of this study saying it does all this great stuff like increased lutin hormone.

Taylor Self (04:07):

Okay. I said testosterone first. You fucker. What does it

Sevan Matossian (04:11):

Do? What does lutin hormone do? Plays an important role in sexual development and function in women. No wonder your pussy. So sweet Taylor. Holy say to make your pussy sweater <laugh>. Hey, it also triggers the release of egg from the ovary <laugh>. This is known as ovulation.

JR Howell (04:26):

Okay. Ovulation administration. Yes.

Taylor Self (04:29):

Good dude. What kind of guy doesn’t want to ovulate in 2022?

Sevan Matossian (04:33):

Jr’s a straight, uh, yeah. Well here’s the thing, Jr. He was, he’s, he’s speaking to the women in the audience and the man, it’ll cause you to fucking lutan eyes and fucking raise your fucking sperm count. That’s what he meant to say

Taylor Self (04:43):

It all. It gets bigger because he gets wetter. Start the coal punch experience.

Sevan Matossian (04:47):

My goodness. Oh boy. JR really was a nurse.

JR Howell (04:50):

Please, please put him to bed. Now,

Sevan Matossian (04:52):

<laugh> Jr. Uh, was a nurse. Wow. Um, so you, you still, oh, you keep your license active hun, Jr

JR Howell (05:02):

They’re still active. Yeah.

Sevan Matossian (05:03):

Yeah. Okay. We didn’t talk about that when you were on the show, but when I was doing the research, I, I was ki I’m always impressed when people do that. What is that a safety net for you in case your shit goes sideways?

JR Howell (05:13):

Unfortunately, people will always get sick. There’s a lot of job security in that,

Sevan Matossian (05:17):

Right? Right. So, uh, uh, prob what’d you say, Taylor?

Taylor Self (05:23):

That was, I said it sounds like a plan B.

Sevan Matossian (05:25):

Touche. Yeah, plan B, appreciate

Taylor Self (05:27):

Touche. Yeah. How we feel about that. Dude, speaking of certifications, the L four registration opened up today and I know someone very, very good at coaching and they’re on, I, they work for CrossFit and they failed the beta.

Sevan Matossian (05:44):


Taylor Self (05:44):

Yeah. So scares the fuck outta me. I was gonna register. I was like, you know, about to register. Then I hear about that. I’m like, ah, I gotta study some more. I don’t think I’m ready yet. Is

Mattew Souza (05:54):

It the same format? Did they say, is it like you go sit down and, and actually take

Taylor Self (05:57):

A test? Or is it, are

Mattew Souza (05:58):

You like up and moving and coaching in front of Abody?

Taylor Self (06:00):

It’s only, you essentially coach to, you go to an affiliate that you’ve never been to before. You don’t know anyone there. Um, and there’s a flow master or an evaluator and you just teach two CrossFit classes. You teach an hour class and then a little while later you teach another act class. They don’t say a word to you. You don’t get any feedback. They just watch you teach for an hour. <laugh> it’s fucking wait.

Sevan Matossian (06:23):

How do they wait? How do they do that? You go somewhere.

Taylor Self (06:25):

Yeah, you go to another, you register. So like the one in March, late March is in Marietta, Georgia. It’s at a CrossFit affiliate. They, I I’m assuming they try to make sure that you go to an affiliate you’re, you’ve never been to before. You don’t coach chat. Um, so you don’t know the people and essentially they, they send you, you know, a workout or two workouts in advance. You get to set, you know, create a class plan, whatever study, prepare yourself, and then you show up and you fucking coach your class and you get fucking clap.

Sevan Matossian (06:52):

Hey, you know, when you take your driver’s test, like there’s something like you can do, so you automatically fail. I don’t know what it is, but it’s like if you go over 25 near a park, there’s like certain things that it’s just a fail. Do you guys know what those are?

Mattew Souza (07:03):

Yeah. If you like, run off the curb in Pleasanton here. It used to be when you take the right turnout, if you weren’t smart enough to pull all the way out, then make the turn and your back tire came off the curb instant fail you

Sevan Matossian (07:13):


Taylor Self (07:14):

The parking lot. So

JR Howell (07:15):

Yeah, I was gonna say like when I was, when I was taking my driving test, it was if you went off the road at all, any tire on the three point turn, if you hit the barrier at all on the parallel park, how do you remember that? If you, if you like Yes. Ran a stop sign or you Yes. Or you or you ran a stop light. Yes. And then there was also one I think that if you

Sevan Matossian (07:34):

Parallel park, if you hit the curb, that was, that’s an automatic fail. Remember that? Yep.

JR Howell (07:37):

And then I wanna say there’s something to do with yielding to traffic. Like if you, if you yield incorrectly or you do not yield, that’s an automatic fail.

Sevan Matossian (07:44):

I heard for the L four. If you don’t ask the class the pronouns before you start, you automatic

Taylor Self (07:48):

Fail <laugh>

Sevan Matossian (07:51):

Just saying

Taylor Self (07:53):

I think, I think what they’re looking for more than anything are like the six criteria of effective coaching, teaching scene, correcting group presence or, or sorry, presence and attitude group management and demo. But specifically like when you’re teaching a movement or correcting a movement, um, can you see it like in a, like it, it’s, there are a lot of criteria that used to judge and it is really freaking hard. And like

Sevan Matossian (08:16):

I heard number six is don’t hurt their feelings. Don’t hurt anyone’s feelings.

Taylor Self (08:19):

Well, I think that it’s a challenge.

Sevan Matossian (08:21):

You’re never gonna pass that and you’re never gonna pass

Taylor Self (08:23):

That. No, here’s the thing, I’m really good at being relentless while also being empathetic to the athlete. I think that’s,

Mattew Souza (08:29):

As the audience here knows,

Taylor Self (08:30):

That’s that’s hard. Yeah. Well,

JR Howell (08:32):


Taylor Self (08:32):

I wonder my fucking athletes, they don’t take my

Sevan Matossian (08:34):

That’s horseshit, dude. You never do you not listen to the feedback we give you after every podcast. Like

Taylor Self (08:39):

Stirred it. You want me to be nice? Come pay $165 to join my affiliate and I’ll be nice.

Sevan Matossian (08:44):

All right. All right. Fine. Yeah. When he is, when he is commentating for free, you can take it in the ass.

Taylor Self (08:50):

<laugh>. You

Mattew Souza (08:50):

Get what you pay

Taylor Self (08:51):

For. Exactly. I got yelled at for saying some kids burpees were slow during zelos.

Sevan Matossian (08:56):

Perfect, perfect. Yeah, you were, you were, it was a little more than they were slow. I think someone got called an idiot. Someone else had slow burpees. There were a few, there was someone else’s weed. There were a few things Jr don’t let ’em off the hook here. There was more than burpees was.

Taylor Self (09:08):

Dude, I got a spanking, I got a spanking for that.

JR Howell (09:10):

No, I was actually still thinking about that criteria and wondering like how they would score it. Like let’s say that you, um,

Taylor Self (09:16):

There’s this, this is the Do you want another the scoring?

JR Howell (09:18):

Yeah, you can, I mean, yeah, go

Mattew Souza (09:20):

Ahead. Off the level two, I’m sure. Right. There’s

Taylor Self (09:22):

Your score, effective needs improvement. And if you get needs improvement, it means you failed it. If you get effective, you passed it and that’s it. And essentially,

JR Howell (09:30):

Wait, but this is my question though. Is it the, is it the delivery of the verbal, the visual and the tactile cue? Or is it how the athlete responds to it? Everything. A k a like better, worse, same. If it’s always same or worse. Do you just fail

Taylor Self (09:41):

That part? Everything. Well, you think if you’re giving the same cue and they’re responding to it in the same way. And like if you’ve making the, if you’ve made the choice to go in and correct a fault and you give the same cue and they’re responding in the same way and you pull away without improving it, at least to a degree or changing a queue or getting some sort of improvement, yeah, you’re gonna get automatic

Mattew Souza (10:00):


Taylor Self (10:00):

You’re gonna get needs of improvement cuz it wasn’t effective. So it just has to be effective like it has to work and, and the, the, sorry, the metrics like whatev, you know, however many criteria there are and like subcategories that they score you on. It’s very detailed and a little, you know, it’s, it’s,

Mattew Souza (10:20):

You know, and savan to your point, I thought when you were doing an automatic fail when you started, if you start the class and you don’t ask, I thought you were gonna say if there’s any injuries or anything, I need to be aware of individual athletes. Oh, right. Like before you went in, then you went all the way up left field with it. That’s why that one got me. So

Taylor Self (10:32):

I wonder if you get time before class to like talk to people. Like if you show up, you know, 15 minutes early, you’re a coach, you typically talk with your class before they show up a little bit and like get to know people. I wonder if there’s room for that.

Sevan Matossian (10:43):

Hey, there might be something like that. There might be something like that. Like if you don’t ask what people’s injuries are or something like that, it’s an automatic fail. There might be something where it’s just, and then the next 59 minutes don’t matter. Hey, what would be crazy is if they just stop the class like 13 minutes in, they’re like, oh,

Taylor Self (10:57):

Wow, dude. Yeah. Like they, yeah, that

Sevan Matossian (10:59):


Taylor Self (11:00):

Done suck.

Mattew Souza (11:00):

That was so bad. Well, that’s interesting thing now because then we have to ask who are the people taking the class, right? Because if they’re just your, if they’re just the, they’re regular members that day and they show up, right? You can’t, you know, necessarily like kick them out. And then also, dude, that’s interesting. I wonder who Yeah,

JR Howell (11:14):

That is interesting because like, what if like, they go up to suse before they’re like, Hey, what’s your name? Hey, I’m Matt. Cool. How long you been doing this? I dunno, a few years. Not today, buddy. You’re brand new. Get what I’m saying? You’re, you’re new. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and you’re just like, what do you mean? He’s like, no, no, you’re you, you tell them this is your first class.

Taylor Self (11:30):

No, see

JR Howell (11:31):

What they do. I don’t think I, I don’t think they would be trying to

Mattew Souza (11:34):

Got some plants in there, stuff

Taylor Self (11:35):

Like that. I’m, I’m sure they have like, I, I, to be honest, I have no idea how that works. Would I? Yeah. Uh,

Mattew Souza (11:41):

If Dave was running it, you know, there would be some people in

Taylor Self (11:43):

There. <laugh>, I think really, uh, flow masters. So the one that I’m aware of, Chuck Carswell was, um, uh, the evaluator. Who was you, you know, about as professional as it gets. I, I think, I think they’re probably not trying to trick anyone. And what they really wanna see is, right, are you actually a master level effective coach? Like, are you effective in all of the six criteria and that, and all of the sub-criteria that go with it. Um, are you effective with your cues? If you see something doesn’t work, do you let it go? Or are you relentless and you do something until it works and move on, but can you do that efficiently, et cetera, all sorts of stuff. The answer

Sevan Matossian (12:18):

I got, Hey, can any, can anyone take it or do you have to be a level three?

Taylor Self (12:20):

You gotta be a level three. Have to, um,

Sevan Matossian (12:23):

Uh, get with the programming if it’s any, uh, and, uh, chase was level one staff. If there’s anything, uh, if it’s, if it’s anything like interning for the level one, for those of you who don’t know, when you go take your level one, let’s say there’s forward level one instructors there, including the flow master, there would always be one, or not always, but often there would be one or two, um, interns there. And those interns, the way it works with the level one is you show up and you do one internship and then you do another internship and then basically they tell you, you made the team or you didn’t make the team. And the fail rate for making it on the team is very, very high. What, what’s it called? Attrition. And so it’s very difficult to make it on that team. And occasionally someone will get a th a third, like if someone’s walking the line, they’ll give someone a third internship. And what Chase is saying, if it’s anything like interning for the level one staff, there are 100% automatic fail things you can do. Like slap someone on the ass or something.

Taylor Self (13:12):

<laugh>, that’s not okay. That’s not a good

Sevan Matossian (13:13):

<laugh>. Oh no,

Taylor Self (13:15):

That’s not a good tactile cue for the kettlebell swing.

Sevan Matossian (13:18):

No, no. To Taylor’s a level five, um, coach.

Mattew Souza (13:23):

Hey, you know what, I’m curious about those level ones and Savan, maybe you could speak to this in the early days, how much of that criteria meant like, did you just fit the culture in the DNA of what you wanted disseminated throughout the CrossFit community? Because like you’ve always said, the L one is like, that’s where that DNA spreads and that’s where that nugget stays tight. We all, well,

Taylor Self (13:40):


Sevan Matossian (13:40):

Heard a lot, I’ve heard what Chase is saying. I cut interns just how they said hi to us in the first meeting. Oh, perfect.

Taylor Self (13:44):

Yeah, I I heard a lot of like, yeah, I’ve heard a lot of stuff like that where essentially just important as you being really good at CrossFit and knowing CrossFit was, are they, do they like you or not? And do they wanna work with you over the course of a weekend? And that is important. Like if you’re a dick, no one wants to work with you for a weekend.

Sevan Matossian (13:59):

Tell athletes to move poorly on purpose. Uh, um, yeah, that would be, yeah, I get it. That’s like someone hits the curb and you’re like, good job. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> or, you know, uh, yeah, I I remember hearing that too in meetings where they would say, Hey, that that’s completely unacceptable. They even tell you that in your L one, you as a coach, it, um, when you go to your level one, I mean, you guys know how much I love it, but that, I don’t guess, I don’t ever talk about this detail, but that’s the thing, man, those guys are hype men. They are those people. You go in there and I don’t know, I don’t know who, I’m just gonna use some old school people, but you go in there and it’s, uh, Joe Westerland, Stefan Roche and Russell Berger, and those dudes are present. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> ev no one’s talking to you without looking right into your cranium <laugh>. And they’re like, you’re, it’s like, I mean, those guys would sell, sell fucking fire to the devil. I mean, they are fucking present and they are are, they have their eyes on you and their undivided attention and it’s, um, yeah, it’s a real deal. Ooh, that’s pretty. Uh, here we go from the CrossFit training website, by the way, this is a, uh, programming show where we’re supposed to be talking about the programming at the Legends competition. I, I assume we’re gonna get to it, just

Mattew Souza (15:05):

Have our sponsors.

Sevan Matossian (15:07):

I I do look alike that we’ve burned 15 minutes already. Uh, the certified CrossFit level four coach performance evaluation is a one day assessment of a trainer’s ability to effectively coach CrossFit movements and run a successful class. This evaluation is for experienced trainers who have been coaching CrossFit in group settings for several years. I think several, what is that? Three or more?

Taylor Self (15:24):

Three or

Sevan Matossian (15:25):

More. Uh, the credential is earned by trainers who have significant coaching experience, a comprehensive educational background, and CrossFit’s prerequisite certification, the certified CrossFit level three trainer credential for more information. Call Nicole Carroll. Let me give you a home phone number. <laugh>.


Uh, and, and, and, and, and I, I would be, uh, remiss to not mention that one of the juggernauts in the fitness industry, if not, I, I, I can’t, can’t sing Nicole’s praises enough just as a, uh, trainer and what she’s done for Planet Earth, period. It’s, it’s, it’s not even like we would need three shows to talk about how great she is. I’ve invited her on the show a few times. We’ve danced around a little bit. Um, hopefully we’ll get her on soon. But she is a remarkable, uh, human being. And for those of you who don’t know, I should plug this also, her husband, uh, Tosh is in a boat.

Taylor Self (16:27):

<laugh>. Oh, he’s rowing to fucking,

Sevan Matossian (16:28):

He is fucking nuts

Taylor Self (16:30):

Or something.

Sevan Matossian (16:30):

Yeah, he’s in a boat right now rowing across the Pacific Ocean and he’s doing it with, uh, I

Taylor Self (16:37):

Thought it was The Atlantic.

Sevan Matossian (16:39):

Was it one of them? He’s rowing across one of the big oceans and Oh, that’s the little pussy one

Taylor Self (16:45):

Dude. They’re rowing to like fucking England, dude.

Sevan Matossian (16:48):

And uh, he’s, I don’t know who the other guys are, but one of the guys, Chris, Chris Smith

Taylor Self (16:52):

Is another

Sevan Matossian (16:52):

Guy. Warmer Navy Seal, Chris Smith, who is also a trainer and maybe even a flow master, he

Taylor Self (16:57):

Owns, he owns an, uh, triun CrossFit

Sevan Matossian (16:59):

And Oh look, there’s the race. Yeah. Wow. Watch out for that Whirlpool guys. <laugh>. So you can go to that app by the way. Um, that team, uh, shut up in row and you can um, you can follow what place they’re in. There’s an app and you can track them as they row across, um, the Atlantic. Oh yeah, there’s their boat. Crazy. Look at Rogue. Do you think they sh look at Rogue.

Taylor Self (17:23):

Rogue? Yep. Do you think they look at Rogue, like how do they, how do they wash themselves? Do you think they like do any of that in the Ocean?

Sevan Matossian (17:29):

<laugh>? Dude, Tosh hasn’t taken a bath in five years. What the fuck are you talking about?

Mattew Souza (17:32):

I think it’s continuous rowing in shifts for like, the whole entire race. So I don’t even know if there’d be an allowance of time where they would

Taylor Self (17:41):

Can’t even have a arresting dude. Then they shoulda got

Sevan Matossian (17:45):

You told Jetro that we’re having Nicole, Greg and Liver King back to back next week.

Taylor Self (17:49):

Dude. He said that was, I’m sorry, it was a private dm. Sorry.

Sevan Matossian (17:55):

Oh, three Navy Seals and a Marine. Okay. From chasing arm. Okay. Uh, and I don’t know what, I think Tosh won. I wish I knew my medals. I think he won the Navy Cross Silver

Taylor Self (18:06):

Star. I thought

Sevan Matossian (18:08):

Whatever the highest thing you can fucking get in the Navy, he got that. And there’s a documentary about him, a two hour documentary. That is

Taylor Self (18:13):

Crazy. Is there a documentary about him? Yes, I’ve read the Wiki.

Sevan Matossian (18:16):

I bought the DVD and watched it when, right after I met him. It’s crazy.

Taylor Self (18:20):

Yeah. Didn’t he? He fucking, yeah,

Sevan Matossian (18:22):

Whatever. He’s walking around with like a cigarette in his mouth, like, like it’s like out of a fucking John Wayne movie. That’s awesome. Yeah, it’s so

Taylor Self (18:29):


Sevan Matossian (18:30):


Taylor Self (18:30):

Is all their food. I think there are only 150 or some, something like that, like 150 or less level fours in the world. That’s crazy.

Sevan Matossian (18:43):

Yeah. That is crazy. Uh, were there any, are there any Jewish guys on the boat?

Taylor Self (18:53):

Hmm? Why, why?

Sevan Matossian (18:55):

Just cuz I just want to check their D E I D e I


Uh, this past, um, what are we talking about? This past weekend was an event.

Taylor Self (19:09):


Sevan Matossian (19:09):

We had, um, James g Grub and Jamie LaMer. She has another last name too. Jamie. Jamie, I just know it was Jamie LaMer from, uh, from this show and Jason Grub from this show. And they both came on, uh, three, three or four days in a row in the morning to chat with us about the event. The event was called The Legends Competition. It is for masters athletes at 30 and above, or 35 and above

Taylor Self (19:34):

35, 35

Sevan Matossian (19:36):

And above. So the categories were similar to the games, 35 to 39, 40 to 44, 45 to 49, et cetera. You know how it plays out. And a shit load of people showed up a ton of people who throws this event. Do we know?

Taylor Self (19:48):

Is it Mayhem?

Sevan Matossian (19:50):

Uh, but but, but it’s not a mayhem event. I think they were just using the Mayhem facility.

Taylor Self (19:55):

I think the company is called Legends, right? Just like Le

Sevan Matossian (20:00):

And it looks like Hamilton Road, uh, production. The same people who do the games. Charlie Doobies company were the people who did the, uh, video for it. They had Sean Woodland there. Uh, Annie Sakamoto doing the commentary. Uh, a real, yeah, look at that thing. Yeah, this is legit. And that’s looking down into the gym that is CrossFit Mayhem. And they competed. And one of my questions the whole time was I was thinking about who does the programming for these events and, and how they do programming for masters and how it differs if it’s just, Hey, you just lighten the weight and you, and you go,

Taylor Self (20:38):

Yeah, that’s what I say

Sevan Matossian (20:40):

<laugh>. So

Taylor Self (20:42):

This show 35 plus you guys can’t do Muscle ups. Sorry.

Sevan Matossian (20:46):

So there you go. There’s Jason Grub, uh, took first place in the competition. Uh, Jamie Vladimir took, uh, second place in her division. Crazy impressive. The only thing that I saw that was weird, and I’m sure there were a lot of things that were weird. There’s Jamie right in the middle there, uh, right next to the chicken, the pink. The only thing that I saw that was weird there and, and I guess we could start here, um, was the fact that in one of the competitions, in one of the ca age categories, you could either do handstand walks or bear crawls.

Taylor Self (21:22):

Whoa, whoa. You could do either

Sevan Matossian (21:24):

Or. Yeah. And, and it, and it didn’t count as scaled. I don’t mean to start with something negative, but I, I mean, I mean to, but I didn’t mean love the throwback. Hey, this isn’t the throwback shirt. I just got this. What are you talking about Dick

Taylor Self (21:35):


Sevan Matossian (21:36):

This isn’t the throwback shirt. I just got this. Yeah,

Taylor Self (21:39):

Yeah. Are you throwback shirt? Are you sure about that? Like, like for certain that they can

Sevan Matossian (21:46):

Can you, can you pull that up? Yeah. You’re disturbed by that, right? Because then it’s not a competition. Right. Anymore

Taylor Self (21:51):

Ex it sounds like the fucking, uh, fuck. What did that, what did that fucker do? I, I can’t remember his name. It sounds like the guy Hiller destroyed the masters athlete who

Sevan Matossian (21:59):

Like Yeah, but that, but that, but it also said that in the games notes too,

Taylor Self (22:03):

I know it said you could either do pistols or box step ups. Like

JR Howell (22:06):

What if you go to Sudden Impact the workout Sudden Impact, I think that’s the one you’re talking about. That’s the only one with a handstand, um, movement other than strict handstand pushups in the final. But Sudden Impact is wall walks. And what’s really cool about the way that these workouts, at least the differences in divisions are presented is there’s a chart underneath every flow and every workout explanation. So you’ve got the workout, the time cap, how many, how it scored, the workout flow. And then beneath, if you scroll down, you’ll see the differences in divisions.

Sevan Matossian (22:37):

What’s workout flow mean?

JR Howell (22:39):

So it’s like saying that, um, at this call of three twenty one go, the athlete will go to the barbell and perform one deadlift. After one deadlift, they’ll return to the wall, perform one wall walk, and then returned to the barbell for two deadlifts and so on for six minutes.

Sevan Matossian (22:53):

Okay. So so kind of like a written out it, it written out verbally.

JR Howell (22:58):


Sevan Matossian (22:58):

And a lot of I they don’t do that in a lot of events. Huh? They don’t do that for the games, do they? They don’t have a flow.

JR Howell (23:05):

They do have a flow, but it’s usually briefed to the athletes and their coaches at the athlete briefing briefings.

Sevan Matossian (23:09):

Right, right. And not to us. Uh, 50 plus didn’t do Sudden Impact. Uh, uh, Harry, uh, Harry Johnson is saying that Mayhem programmed this event

JR Howell (23:22):

And when we had Rich on, um, the most recent show he did, we a actually asked him that and he said that they had some say but they didn’t have a hundred percent control. So there were some parameters they had to work within.

Sevan Matossian (23:35):

Alright. Um, Jr um, what is the difference in programming for people who are older and, and, and, and and when do they get older? What is older?

JR Howell (23:53):

Well, let me answer that with a question for you. Yeah. Athletes needs vary by what?

Sevan Matossian (24:01):


Taylor Self (24:02):

Degree not kind.

JR Howell (24:03):

Degree not kind. Right. So here’s my question and Bill, I mean I hope he’s watching this, but he can chime in on a lot of stuff. This is something he’s really passionate about, being a master’s athlete and having a lot of opinions about how they should do the program design. Do you tell someone that of the 10 general physical skills, flexibility is important until you turn 60 and then that’s no longer a skill that’s important? No, no. You tell them that strength is important until they’re a certain age and then they don’t need to work on it. No. So a lot of people would argue that it shouldn’t change that. Yeah, sure. As we age, some things will deteriorate a little, but telling people that when they turn 50 years old, they shouldn’t have to squat with something over their head anymore. Doesn’t make any sense from the foundation of CrossFit.

Sevan Matossian (24:46):

Okay, let me throw some of the things out there. Go. How about go upside down

JR Howell (24:51):

Things, especially that are more so kinesthetic awareness that are more so skills that you can acquire, you can acquire into your as later years as you want. So I think if anything, gymnastics movements should be something that stays, should be something that we want to let people showcase, that we allow people to showcase into those really later masters years. Look at the games this year, every division did some form, some form of pegboard climb. Even the oldest age division had a line and they said, Hey, take the two pegs, get ’em above this line, go back down. That’s a rep.

Taylor Self (25:26):


JR Howell (25:27):

But you all the age, all the age divisions did ring muscle ups at the games this year. And I know this event isn’t at CrossFit games, but I think we can, we can, we can let that lead by example and let us kind of see what’s important as far as aging and what’s still possible as we age.

Taylor Self (25:43):

What about, what about danger and injuries?

JR Howell (25:46):

I think that if you sign up for a competition like this and for the CrossFit games, you’re playing a sport more so than you’re just performing for health and wellness.

Sevan Matossian (25:55):

Are are there any movements that are Go ahead. Go ahead Taylor.

Taylor Self (25:57):

No, I was gonna say, I’m glad you answered in that fashion because I, I get frustrated when you, again, you see like age divisions are like, oh, I can’t do that. You know, I’m my mobility. I’m like, well then, well, it’s a sport. If you’re competing then it’s a sport. So if you can’t do it, then fuck off

Sevan Matossian (26:13):

<laugh>. Right. Fair, fair. Um, and, and, and are there any exceptions to this rule? Are there any movements that you re that, uh, that you see? Um, let’s pick the a let’s pick the oldest age division just to make it easy on herself. Is there any 65 and up that, that division goes infinitely, right? You could be 90 years old. It doesn’t go 65 to 69, right?

JR Howell (26:35):

Right. 60 plus

Sevan Matossian (26:36):

60. Oh, it’s 60 plus. Are there any movements in that, that division that wouldn’t be okay for that division that you might see at the CrossFit games?

JR Howell (26:46):

I don’t think there are movements that sh necessarily need to be omitted completely. I think there are movements that in particular volumes can be irresponsible. Yeah. For if you, for instance, if you have a workout for 35 to 39 that has 500 double unders, maybe not a great thing to program for 60 plus just because of the number of, you know, Achilles tendons, just calf injuries, soleus, whatever. Um, but what I do think is important is that this doesn’t mean that they can’t do double unders. They can, but maybe instead of doing five sets of a hundred, they do five sets of 25.

Sevan Matossian (27:22):

Were you gonna say something Taylor?

Taylor Self (27:24):

I was gonna say, wow, lost my train. Okay. I was gonna say, I, I think what we are seeing here in terms of, okay, what are we programming for masters versus what can masters athletes actually do versus what is safe or correct to program for masters? I think it’s just the evolution of what human beings are capable of. And I think it’s gonna take a longer time to see that play out for older athletes, uh, than it has for the individual division. Because the individual, you know, 10 years ago in CrossFit or in 2007 or prior to 2007, were we asking 65 plus year olds to hand sand walk and do things like that in a competitive setting? Was the world demanding that or asking that of any athletes that age or to be able to, to be capable of what now a 65 plus CrossFit athlete is capable of? Uh, no. At least for the most part, no. So then when we introduce that, it’s like, oh, we’re not really sure what these people are capable of. Maybe we’re gonna be a little nervous with or cautious with what we program for them. And then maybe in 20 or 30 years when Matt Fraser is a 65 plus athlete, he can probably do quite a bit more than a lot of the 65 plus athletes of today’s, uh, environment.

Sevan Matossian (28:36):

Or, but, but you still have work, you still have workouts that even show up in the individual, like the skills medley for example, that only two or three people finish. And so conceivably that still could happen in the masters also in the 60. Yeah, in the 60 plus. And I even remember, I don’t know what year it was at the CrossFit games, but they had them do handstand walks and a lot of the masters couldn’t even do ’em. I I remember James Fitzgerald, the 2007 individual champ couldn’t do the handstand walk in the, um, master’s comp. So, so, so, so it happens, but, but I guess what you’re saying is that goes back to degree, you’re saying it’s the exact you, you should program, um, you should, you, you can program anything as long as it fit. Uh, uh, you can program any movement.

Taylor Self (29:18):

I, I think in theory you can program any movement in practice. It’s really hard to do. What I’m saying is what masters athletes are gonna be capable of in 10 or 15 or 20 years, it’s gonna be way more than what they’re capable of now.

JR Howell (29:31):

Okay. And in the same respect, I think, you know, we have a, we have a competition like this that used in-person qualifiers to get people there. Now each of those qualifiers, if they weren’t told to do the same programming, we don’t know that, you know, often, like when we talk about the semi-finals having different program design, we don’t know that they’re being screened for the games because they all have different programming. But what did the 65 plus year olds do this year.

The above transcript is generated using AI technology and therefore may contain errors.

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