#361 – Dr. Trevor Kashey

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Sevan Matossian (00:01):

Bam. We’re live. Ah, I’m at home.

Dr. Trevor Kashey (00:06):

Nice.

Sevan Matossian (00:09):

The Dr. Trevor cashey oh, maybe I will change your, Hmm. What if I change your name to your Instagram account so people can see it and then jump on. That

Dr. Trevor Kashey (00:20):

Sounds like a genius idea. And I agree.

Sevan Matossian (00:23):

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Absolutely. We’re off to a good we’re off to a good start. Anything I say that you wanna say? Sounds like a genius idea. Yes.

Dr. Trevor Kashey (00:32):

I think I have this at

Sevan Matossian (00:35):

What’s up with the green screen

Dr. Trevor Kashey (00:36):

Handle at Dr. Cashey I think,

Sevan Matossian (00:39):

Uh, I will check.

Dr. Trevor Kashey (00:40):

Yeah,

Sevan Matossian (00:41):

My fabulous iPhone device here. Let’s see at Dr. Trevor. Oh, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Just Dr. Cashy. Okay. All

Dr. Trevor Kashey (00:58):

Right. I found the button collaborative effort.

Sevan Matossian (01:01):

Oh, thank you. Thank you. Thank thank you. Thank you. Good morning everybody. Wow, you guys are piling in fast. You guys excited for this one? We’re gonna get straight to business. Do you think that if will Smith had had a different breakfast? He would’ve knocked Chris rock out. How is does one grown man slap another grown man. He’s 50 pounds heavier then and not knocked. Come out. I don’t understand. You hang with fighters in, in, in a Bejan the waring country of my,

Dr. Trevor Kashey (01:31):

I think he spent too much time pretending to smack people.

Sevan Matossian (01:34):

Right, right. Damn. He did a good job. Then he got get, then he gets an a

Dr. Trevor Kashey (01:39):

Right relativity, right, man,

Sevan Matossian (01:42):

Man. Oh man. Boys will be boys

Dr. Trevor Kashey (01:45):

In. Inevitably.

Sevan Matossian (01:47):

Did you ever see the, um, did you know he has a biography out, uh, will Smith or, or, or autobiography? I

Dr. Trevor Kashey (01:54):

Believe it. Oh, actually. Yeah. So I think I saw it pop up on audible perhaps.

Sevan Matossian (01:58):

Yeah. He has an autobiography out, but, and, and someone played a clip from it the other day. And, and it basically, when he was nine years old, he saw his dad beat his mom till blood was pouring out of her. And he always, and he said his whole life, um, he, he resents the fact that he never, he, he, he looks, he views himself as a coward cuz he never stood up for his mom. And I was like, wow, that’s some heavy shit. I mean, and he wrote that obviously before that happened. So I always wonder, was wondering like, oh, I wonder if that was like, he’s like, well shit, I gotta do something for

Dr. Trevor Kashey (02:28):

Perhaps it, it, uh, it fills in some blanks.

Sevan Matossian (02:32):

Right, right. Yeah. Totally. I hate, I like both the guys. I mean, I mean, I don’t know them, but just their, their body of work will, Smith’s one of those guys, if it’s a shitty movie, I’ll still go see it. Cuz I like ’em.

Dr. Trevor Kashey (02:42):

Hmm. I, I know very little about the encounter. I did see some of like the headlines popping up here and the there and, and uh, I, I found some of the language rather cringy and, and got stuck on that rather than the story itself.

Sevan Matossian (02:56):

The, the language between them or the language in the article?

Dr. Trevor Kashey (02:58):

No language in like outlets.

Sevan Matossian (03:02):

Yes. Like

Dr. Trevor Kashey (03:02):

Media platforms. I, I found it rather cringy. I I’ll just say cringy.

Sevan Matossian (03:07):

Um, you’re a word guy.

Dr. Trevor Kashey (03:10):

Uh, yes. I, I consider myself, uh, having a semantic orientation of sorts. Yes.

Sevan Matossian (03:15):

You value you value words.

Dr. Trevor Kashey (03:16):

I do very much.

Sevan Matossian (03:18):

Yeah.

Dr. Trevor Kashey (03:19):

Very

Sevan Matossian (03:19):

Much. Yeah. Me too. Me too. Very, very, very, very

Dr. Trevor Kashey (03:25):

What

Sevan Matossian (03:26):

Else? Very, very, very, very, very much. I think words are, uh, are, um, soory and I, in the most childish sense, but um, I think people are manipulated, confused, attracted, um, got to do things by their misunderstanding or their of words. I, I, I don’t think people realize, um, the power of words. They, they create our reality. You know, you might know this Dow saying a naming is the origin of all particular things. And I don’t think people realize that that’s act that’s actually true.

Dr. Trevor Kashey (04:00):

I, I, I would more or less agree. I also agree to the, to the Sourcery comment because we tend to chalk things up to magic. If we have a problem explaining the mechanism behind it. Right. And we have really a limited understanding, some albeit a limited understanding of how language ends up affecting behavior. And to that end, it makes it look very missed goal or in can enchanting, I suppose, sory that sort of stuff. And a lot of the lot of the things that happened kind of happened on accident instead of on purpose and the post facto analysis just makes it look like it happened on purpose.

Sevan Matossian (04:33):

Right. Right. When I was a kid, I remember these bugs bunny cartoons where there would be like a, a, a, the old ones where there would be a, a, a book, you know, and the guy would read from it and he would turn bugs money would turn the guy into like a mouse. Right. I’m like, oh, how silly, like, I’ve, I’ve actually watched it happen in the last two years. People get, people get turned into sheep.

Dr. Trevor Kashey (04:55):

Correct. Correct.

Sevan Matossian (04:57):

Just right before my eyes, I was like, wow.

Dr. Trevor Kashey (04:59):

Yes, yes. I, I take a few interesting or possibly counterintuitive perspectives on things like that. Uh, somebody might say that the person like the media manipulates people’s behavior, right. Rather common sort of conclusion. And I, I take the, the equal opposite perspective that the media only does things that people already respond to. And so the people I consume, the media actually direct the media content rather than the other way around.

Sevan Matossian (05:27):

Oh, wow. And that’s that, that kind of thinking it has continuity with, uh, I, I heard you on another podcast and you guys were talking about that in terms of, um, diet. Like you can ask someone to write something down what they eat every single day. And, and like in, I think the example was the person might write down that they eat 1200 calories a day, but they weigh 340 pounds and you’re like, Hmm, that doesn’t make sense. But then, you know, you see ’em two weeks later and they’ve kind of lived up to that. They’ve lost 20 pounds because now they’re living up to their, what they told you that they

Dr. Trevor Kashey (06:00):

Were absolutely. It, it, you can, you can kind of reduce it down to like a so-called Hawthorne effect, right. Where like, if, if you, if you or anyone else, uh, operates as if you get watched that your behavior ends up changing as a function of that watching, and a lot of people kind of discount that your behavior can change. Even if you watch yourself,

Sevan Matossian (06:24):

I’m gonna have to ask you about that. One second Hawthorne effect. The Hawthorne effect is the type of reactivity in which individuals modify an aspect of their behavior in response to the awareness of being observed. Wow. Just like Dr. Cashey said, um, when, uh, when in, in the L one, when Greg Glassman used to teach this, um, course called the CrossFit level one, he used to say that basically. I mean, it was pretty obvious, but he’d say put someone on a rower and, uh, check their ti. And then when you walk up behind him and check their time, all the numbers start going up, you know, you stand over the, you stand over their monitor and their shit starts to get real good. Yeah,

Dr. Trevor Kashey (06:57):

For sure. Well, especially, especially if you know, the, the boss man comes walking by and you, you have 1, 2, 1 the other, or both, you either have an appreciation of this person’s attention, attention, affection, and approval, right? Like you care that this person has a positive regard for you, or you have fear of this person projecting or punishing you. And both of them end up having the sort of result of increased work, output, increased work output. And, uh, those have, have subtle, subtle, yet fundamental differences. And where that I’ll just call it motivation comes from which I find fascinating.

Sevan Matossian (07:33):

Yeah. I’m always perplexed by the people who don’t give a fuck about that. Who like almost sabotage themselves, who don’t respect the fact that the boss is there. You know what I mean? Like the boss walks into the, the, the lunch room and, and they double down, they sit down and throw their legs up. I’m like, oh,

Dr. Trevor Kashey (07:51):

You mentioned that you, you can also take the approach that people just do what they get taught to do. And if the boss accepts that sort of thing, or only intermittently rewards or intermittently punishes that as a side effect, it actually sort of facilitates that sort of lackadaisical behavior under surveillance.

Sevan Matossian (08:08):

Yeah.

Dr. Trevor Kashey (08:08):

Yeah. So like kids do what they get taught to do employees do what they get taught to do you get, you do what you get, et cetera, et cetera. Right. So that sort of behavior, although it easy to blame the lazy employees, so to speak it really just like the media commentary before we do what we get taught to do. And if it gets accepted, then sometimes it generalizes to other environments that, you know, that behavior kind of conflicts. But if it, if it happens as an ongoing thing, well, it takes two to tango. My brother.

Sevan Matossian (08:38):

Yes.

Dr. Trevor Kashey (08:40):

Yeah.

Sevan Matossian (08:41):

Um, Dr. Trevor cashey has a website, uh, and a business and a project and a, um, experiment running on a website called, uh, Trevor cashey nutrition. Um, you, you wanna see this website in, in, and the part you wanna scroll down to is let see if I can share this page, the parts you want to, the part you wanna scroll. Well, the part I think everyone, my listeners wanna scroll down to is they, they wanna click over here to the kickstart program and you wanna scroll all what, it’s all good read in a quick read. You want to go through these. This is really neat. This is really neat. This reminds me of, um, what does it remind me of, what do you do? What, how would you describe your program in, in like a couple sentences in the fact that like, I actually, I don’t care if you do it in 10,000 sentences, but, um, you’re, you’re teaching people how to sort of reprogram themselves, um, so that they don’t put shit in their mouth that fucks their machine up.

Dr. Trevor Kashey (09:53):

So I, I will answer your first question with a few sentences and then in let that expand it as, as you, as you allow to your, your heart’s

Sevan Matossian (10:01):

Content. Good. Thank you. So

Dr. Trevor Kashey (10:03):

I, I can sum this up in a, in a single sentence. I get chills every time I say it, that having the life you want comes as a side effect of becoming the sort of person it takes to get it

Sevan Matossian (10:15):

One more time, please

Dr. Trevor Kashey (10:16):

Having the life you want comes as a side effect of becoming the person it takes to it.

Sevan Matossian (10:23):

Mm man, this is a great theme.

Dr. Trevor Kashey (10:27):

So in that vein, people want lots of stuff. They want money, they want a better job. They want the body, they want, they want, they want all these things and end up and, and have, have some operational understanding of the sort of things to do, right. People know to eat, eat less people know to eat vegetables, people know, to save. They know, they know to save their money. They know to sleep more, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And yet we have obstacles that sort of lower the probability of performing these rather benign behaviors to get that sort of result. And so it has less to do with knowing how to answer the question of how do I get X and more to do with the gap between the thing I want and actually doing the thing. So at T can we call that the intention intervention gap? So I

Sevan Matossian (11:21):

Say that one more time, you call it the, what the intention intervention gap, the

Dr. Trevor Kashey (11:24):

Intention inter gap. So

Sevan Matossian (11:26):

The stuff is that where the obstacle lies.

Dr. Trevor Kashey (11:29):

Um, so good question. I think obstacles can increase, can increase the gap or shrink the gap, cetera, like the whole thing I consider metaphorical, obviously. Uh, but basically I, I consider it like this arbitrarily visual arbitrary visualization of the amount of effort, time, skill, et cetera, uh, all the, all the confounding variables and known variables it takes to do the thing, the more things that you have in the way, the greater that gap between the thing you want and actually doing the thing it takes. So sometimes it has to do with, uh, a skill deficiency. Like maybe you could just actually like the motor patterns of cooking for instance, right. A lot of people might actually avoid cooking and go to the drive through, or the gas station or the, or the whatever. Uh, and that might make it difficult to, to put an intervention into practice because they have an aversion to cooking for instance.

Dr. Trevor Kashey (12:28):

And so if the person we, you learned how to cook that might close the gas app between what they want and doing the thing it takes. And so we try to consider as many of those things that increase the gap as, as, as humanly possible, I suppose, and then make a concerted effort to, uh, intervene like T can, would intervene at the variables that we know that, uh, obstruct a person from, from doing the things it takes to get what they want. So instead of really me caring that you get a six pack, I care about all the shit that keeps you from getting it. And then you end up getting it on your own on accident. Does that follow

Sevan Matossian (13:12):

I care? Yep. Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. Yep. Uh, obstacle a thing that blocks one’s way or prevents or hinders the progress. That’s an obstacle.

Dr. Trevor Kashey (13:26):

Yes.

Sevan Matossian (13:30):

Why, why listen to, um, uh, Dr. Trevor cashey well, for starters, um, just to throw the most superficial thing, we can throw out there at 20, he got his PhD in biochemistry, so he’s, he’s a dork. So, uh, and, and then on top of that, he went to OER Beja to share this knowledge with fighters, he’s not a dork. Um, so, and, and the whole life is just sprinkled with that, but I just want to give you guys a couple just quick, like, you know, KBO like, oh shit, like, you’re not just listening to some guy who, who, who, who fell off the turnip truck and you can go to the website and, and see that this thing is really, uh, well thought out. And it would be a, a fun adventure it’s um, oh, I was gonna do the math. I screwed that up. I screwed that all up.

Dr. Trevor Kashey (14:17):

We got time in.

Sevan Matossian (14:18):

Let’s see. There’s uh, let me pop over one of my calculator here. There are, um, Thank you for taking the, the stress off me. There’s 12 weeks and that’s time, seven days. And that gives you 80, 84 days. And there’s $1,497 divided by 84 days. And the program’s only $17 and 80 cents a. I normally don’t do that, but I just, uh, there there’s a button on there that says how much does this cost? Yeah. You should see the before and after photos, When, when you put stuff up like that, you’re such a genuine guy and it’s such a, um, serious project, not serious. Like, I, I don’t wanna take away the happiness and fun from it.

Dr. Trevor Kashey (15:12):

You can say serious. Okay.

Sevan Matossian (15:14):

I

Dr. Trevor Kashey (15:14):

Give a shit, man.

Sevan Matossian (15:15):

Okay. Like I almost

Dr. Trevor Kashey (15:17):

Crying just saying that.

Sevan Matossian (15:19):

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. I love it. Okay. For pizza sake. Yeah. It’s a serious, it’s a serious project. When you, when you do things like before and after photos, do you ever feel like you’re like, because that, that’s where I guess the ven diagrams would cross with the, um, Hey, take these pills and you’ll lose weight. Like when, when I was at CrossFit, Inc. Um, and I ran the media department there and I’m so, I’m so proud of it. I, I was in, I was basically in charge for when the place went to more or less 300 gyms to 15,000 gyms. And I was the only second guy on the media team there and we expanded massively, but there was O there, there was a point like in 2017 or 18 where Greg goes, okay, we’re gonna start using before. And, and I was kind of like shocked. Did you have any, um, what do you think about before and after photos? Like, almost like we were too cool to do that at first, you know, like, fuck you, our shit, our shit, like, fuck you either get on. Or don’t, you know what I mean? Like our shit works.

Dr. Trevor Kashey (16:16):

So that, that sort of, from, from a business perspective, I’ll say that sort of pattern of behavior, I agree will support a single man. Okay.

Sevan Matossian (16:31):

What, what pattern of behavior? Sorry, I lost you already. Well,

Dr. Trevor Kashey (16:33):

You understood. So the I’ll just call it the, the pride of keeping the results to yourself. Yeah,

Sevan Matossian (16:39):

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, well feminist,

Dr. Trevor Kashey (16:42):

Yes. Okay. To, to add on to that.

Sevan Matossian (16:44):

Yes. It was pride. We were prideful bunch. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah,

Dr. Trevor Kashey (16:47):

Yeah. Yeah. And until like, I would say even a couple of months ago, nobody really even knew what I looked like, because I, I absolutely refused to let the way I look affect my business. I refused to let people, like, he looks great. He’s R whatever, whatever, whatever, whatever, oh, sign up with that guy that I felt cringy because of it. And I had this weird dialectical tension that, well, either I end up marketing myself because of the things that I can do and accomplish, and, or, uh, the results that the people get speak for themselves. And so I ended up going that route, which then created a secondary sort of tension of, well, do I post results of people or do I let them post? And I say, use the term post loose loosely, and then let word of mouth, take care of itself and probably close to the first 10 years I let that happen. I operated and, and more or less silence, only allowing the word of mouth from the people that I worked with. I increase my client load. Yeah. Aside from the first major bump that I got, because I got syndicated on accident in, in either case.

Sevan Matossian (17:56):

That’s the, and that’s the story with Alex?

Dr. Trevor Kashey (17:58):

No, this actually happened well before that probably in like 2014, perhaps.

Sevan Matossian (18:03):

Okay. Sorry. I don’t, I don’t mean to interrupt. I’ll make a note. I’ll circle back around. I won’t forget. Okay. Go on. So

Dr. Trevor Kashey (18:08):

Just to, to give you a key word, I got, I, I, I came onto, somebody’s like, uh, relatively high traffic fitness blog at the time of like a third choice because the other people bailed and then somebody like, Hey, I worked with this guy. You should talk to him. And he said, okay. Uh, and

Sevan Matossian (18:26):

That’s how I found you, by the way, Michael Easter author of the, um, crisis. Yeah. He’s like, dude, I go, what? He goes, you gotta have meet Dr. Trevor. Cashy you’ll love him. I’m like, all right. That’s and then I couldn’t find you because you were hidden amongst photos of, uh, Tyson fury.

Dr. Trevor Kashey (18:43):

So I, I,

Sevan Matossian (18:45):

Am I the first person to say that?

Dr. Trevor Kashey (18:47):

Um, I think so. Yes.

Sevan Matossian (18:50):

You’re a good dude.

Dr. Trevor Kashey (18:52):

Yes.

Sevan Matossian (18:55):

I’m the first of, after a thousand, right.

Dr. Trevor Kashey (18:58):

You know, I’ll, I’ll take it the I for a very long time, I operated almost as like, how do I say this?

Sevan Matossian (19:10):

He’s quirky. Like you too. Okay. Sorry. Sorry, go ahead.

Dr. Trevor Kashey (19:13):

Oh, we get along. Great. You know, how long

Sevan Matossian (19:15):

Do you know him?

Dr. Trevor Kashey (19:16):

Michael Easter. Yeah. I can see.

Sevan Matossian (19:18):

No, no, not Michael Easter Tyson fury. No,

Dr. Trevor Kashey (19:21):

No. I know what he looks like.

Sevan Matossian (19:23):

And do you know his personality? No. Oh dude. You guys should meet. He needs you. This fucking guy needs you. I just realized this is the greatest heavyweight boxer who ever lived by far. He actually knows how to fight. I know people wanna be like Tyson Ali, this guy fights. Have you seen this guy? He’s six, 10 or whatever. And he like fights like a pugilist awesome. Okay. We’re way off track. But we, I gotta set you guys up. I don’t know him either, but, but I I’m gonna figure it out. He needs you and his body’s all fucked up. His body’s all fucked up. He don’t care, but, but he needs you.

Dr. Trevor Kashey (20:00):

He, he cares enough.

Sevan Matossian (20:01):

Yeah. And he’s fun. Cool. He’s fun. Yeah. Yeah. And he’s got some addiction issues. You okay. Now I’m leaving way off script guys. So this there’s this big program and it’s called the Dr. Cashey. Um, the program him, I guess T Trevor cashey nutrition and it’s T K N but, and, and, and he has this program with all these people who one-on-one will, will, will, will get you from point a to point Z or, or give you the tools to do it. But if you’ve got some weird shit going on, you actually deal with Dr. Cashey let’s you got a big old growth on your back and, and you don’t wanna have it surgically removed. He’ll work with you to have it removed, or if you’ve had acne, since you were, I, I I’m making this up. I don’t know this for sure. Since you were six years old to when you were 42 and no one’s ever been able to cure it, Dr. Cashey will help you. That’s why I’m thinking like, um, Tyson, fury needs Dr. Cashey cuz he, he works with like the special, the special projects group, right? The four, the two-headed snakes.

Dr. Trevor Kashey (20:59):

Yes. I I’ve, I’ve taken a liking to, to people with interesting situations. And I have, frankly, I’ve learned more from them than anybody else. And, and so far as I do this, because I like to learn shit if it helps other people. Great.

Sevan Matossian (21:15):

Yes. You know? Yes,

Dr. Trevor Kashey (21:16):

Yes. And, and that, and I, I, I keep myself open and honest in that way because I wanna get something out of this too. And in an ideal situ everybody benefits from, from me learning. So instead of me taking the sort of mother Teresa approach, like I, I, I care very much that I spend my time learning as much as possible. I take a rather scholarly ilk and in, in so far as the, oh, Casey, my food up in, uh, the insofar as like, I lost my train of thought here.

Sevan Matossian (21:54):

Sorry, I’ll do that to you. The whole show. I apologize. It’s wor it’s the, I’m the worst. I’m the worst. The worst podcaster ever lived. Where

Dr. Trevor Kashey (22:01):

Did, where I already screwed myself up. Where did I lose out here?

Sevan Matossian (22:06):

Um, Hey, I

Dr. Trevor Kashey (22:06):

Bust stop my Seinfeld impression. What’s the shades.

Sevan Matossian (22:10):

Can we start over? Yeah.

Dr. Trevor Kashey (22:11):

What do you want from me, man?

Sevan Matossian (22:14):

Um, how does this change? Other? So when, when one of the things they teach at the CrossFit level one is, is that, um, if you do, um, if you give the body, put the body under stress, it will adapt. And so like I realize, okay, so that’s what I need to do to my kids. I give them control old, safe places to stress. So for example, the example I always use is if my child falls down, I don’t run over and pick them up. I now have a great opportunity for controlled, controlled stress. What I do is I turn my back to the child to make sure a bear doesn’t come outta the bushes and eat my that’s my job to make sure it’s a safe place for the child to deal with it stress. And then it stands up and it gets some muscle growth, right? And some balance and agility. And it learns. So instead of picking my child up 10,000 times, my child learns 10,000 air squats from the bottom. And, and it ha I know that there’s things that they learn in this program that I, I know this program is deeper than cha, than giving you a six pack. I know that it, it then will pervade seep into all the different places in your, your life. Can you gimme some examples of that, about how other things change with these tools?

Dr. Trevor Kashey (23:18):

Uh, I will tell you that we almost, and at the kickstart program, we almost exclusively focus on those other things. Ah, so, and, and then like true to form the six pack, the improved strength, the increased endurance, the, uh, getting ready for the photo shoot, et cetera, happens as a side effect of, of identifying and addressing the constraints to those things, which almost always happened to be something tangential to nutrition and fitness.

Sevan Matossian (23:46):

Can you gimme an example? Like, well, like what if someone’s, um, sure. He has four girl. What about cheating on your wife? Let’s say you cheat on your wife. What

Dr. Trevor Kashey (23:53):

About it?

Sevan Matossian (23:54):

Um, in the, are there things in that program? And I, it just totally pulls, pull that out the dark, correct. The things in that program that gets you online to see, Hey, that’s not, that’s not a, that’s not conducive to a, um, a healthy life to be lying to one person sneaking around. It’s like, it’s not healthy. I don’t care about the cheating part. It’s like the dishonesty part is the part that understood is, is not healthy for a human being. We don’t, we don’t operate optimally when we’re lying.

Dr. Trevor Kashey (24:20):

For sure. And, and in that regard, I consider that having a strong component rather than like a ubiquitous human nature component. And so I take a rather relativistic approach insofar as you have these things affecting your life right now, let us look at the facts and then you can decide based off of, uh, making your private observations public. You can then go through a, really a rash with me or someone else to determine how much does this affect your, your progress. So do I say that’s effing up your progress? No, I take a much more Socratic approach, uh, because if a person presents an issue and when I say that, I mean, they sh they make a private issue, public that we have the discussion of. Well, tell me what makes it a problem, because somebody might say they have a problem. And then an expert in particular will just put on their expert hat and then guess as to why that makes it a problem for them with, with, with the sort of expertise that they have. In other words, if you have a toothache and go to the chiropractor, what does a chiropractor do your back?

Sevan Matossian (25:27):

Oh, right, right,

Dr. Trevor Kashey (25:29):

Right. And so what I think the problem is, or causes, I put way in the back burner, because I care more about why you think it causes a problem. And then we can have a rational dialogue as to, well, have you distorted the facts and confused it, thus blowing it up up, or despairing or dramatizing or whatever, or does the way that you explain or describe the problem to yourself and to other people, uh, give you some wiggle room to start modifying these, I’ll just call ’em aversive stimuli that have you act like a fool. And, and I use act like a fool is more of a term for, well, does it IED your progress? And for some things you people think they have problems and they really do nothing to impede their progress. It really just has to do with them obsessing over it,

Sevan Matossian (26:19):

Right. To really

Dr. Trevor Kashey (26:20):

Deal the problem itself. Or do you deal with the obsessive rumination?

Sevan Matossian (26:24):

Right.

Dr. Trevor Kashey (26:25):

And so that sort of stuff, uh, to the, that end, the specific problem, I think matters less than, like you said, how the person adapts to it. Because

Sevan Matossian (26:35):

I know people like that, I know ton of people like that. I see people who like, they have the same five problems over and over and over and over. And I’m like, dude, correct.

Dr. Trevor Kashey (26:43):

And I would pause it that most, everyone operates like that. My man, that, you know, you can, I, I, I mentioned this the other day. I forget what I think, uh, in any case you’ve heard statistics or numbers, like people think 30,000 thoughts a day or whatever. And, and I would say, yeah, people think the same three things 10,000 times.

Sevan Matossian (27:01):

Right? Right.

Dr. Trevor Kashey (27:02):

So a,

Sevan Matossian (27:04):

A lot of, why do you have to, why from the, from the first time someone makes fun of you when you’re 16 years old and a sophomore, um, in high school, someone says, Hey, you have a huge nose. Why does it take until you’re 43 to be like, I’m, I’m not gonna trip on that anymore. Like, dude, you’re gonna wake up tomorrow. That nose is only getting bigger. You should push that thought to the there’s nothing you can do about it.

Dr. Trevor Kashey (27:24):

Okay. So you’re the answer you gave actually contributes to the problem in my opinion.

Sevan Matossian (27:33):

Oh, great. Great, good, good, good. So when you

Dr. Trevor Kashey (27:34):

Say push it to the side, right. That really

Sevan Matossian (27:36):

Means I meant push it down. I meant push it down and hide it

Dr. Trevor Kashey (27:40):

Well, for, for sure. In, in either case via my, my perspective stands that the, the gut response for most people basically amounts to ignore it. And what does ignore it really mean in a practical way, from a behavioral standpoint, it means avoiding situations that where it happens. Right. And that means every time you avoid a situation where somebody talks about your big ass noses, it actually reinforces your aversion to it.

Sevan Matossian (28:05):

Right.

Dr. Trevor Kashey (28:06):

And until something else happens in your life or a culmination of other things, or that DGA kind of sets in,

Sevan Matossian (28:13):

What does that mean? What’s what’s that mean DGA? Well,

Dr. Trevor Kashey (28:15):

It short, it stands for, don’t give a fuck.

Sevan Matossian (28:17):

Right, right, right. Okay. So people make fun of my nose. And so I stop going to school and I don’t have to deal with anyone making fun of my nose for 10 years. And then all of a sudden I get into the workforce and people are making fun of my nose again. Well, that didn’t work.

Dr. Trevor Kashey (28:29):

Correct. Well, it worked, it did work until it stopped. Right. And so you, I like the term that you use adaptation, which a lot of people in exercise use a lot. Uh, but they also confuse that adaptation to a stressful stimulus. It, it often conflicts with social and cultural norms, you adapted to it by avoiding. I consider that an adaptation, you terminated the negative stimulus period. Now the adaptation in that situation may or may not translate to other situations where that happens. And so at that point, a person might call it Mo adaptive or whatever. I consider it all adaptations are all adaptations. And sometimes you have, you make a relevant adaptation to a specific environment. And a lot of times adaptations to specific environments, they deviate from other specific environments. So from a therapeutic or coaching or fatherly parental employer standpoint, you want to help people adapt in ways that that facilitate generalization or you learn to do things in such a way where it helps you in a wide variety of situations, rather than just the one situation where it affected you. Otherwise you start making these arbitrary relations because humans do that where humans, one of the things that makes us human has to do with our capacity to generalize one situation to another. If you teach a dog to sit in a quiet room in the, in, on the kitchen, and then you go to a noisy room and.

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