#316 – Zoe Harcombe

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Sevan Matossian (00:02):

Bam. We’re live.

Zoe Harcombe (00:04):

We’re live

Sevan Matossian (00:04):

Anything. Don’t say anything. You wouldn’t want your parents to hear we’re live.

Zoe Harcombe (00:07):

But Andy is right here and it means he can’t I on

Sevan Matossian (00:11):

Andy. Good morning. Good morning, brother.

Zoe Harcombe (00:13):

How are you doing young, man?

Sevan Matossian (00:15):

I’m ha I’m happy. I’m ha I’m happy as a clam to see both of you. You

Zoe Harcombe (00:18):

Can brilliant. Happy as a clam. Good.

Sevan Matossian (00:22):

Yeah. Happy. I don’t even know what that means. What does that mean? Happy as a clam. Why are clams happy?

Zoe Harcombe (00:27):

No, you’ve, you’ve cut him off. Andy’s just cut your You anymore.

Sevan Matossian (00:32):

When, uh, usually I have some help on the back end soon as he comes on the back end. I’ll ask him what it means. Happy as a clam.

Zoe Harcombe (00:38):

I have no idea what it means.

Sevan Matossian (00:42):

Zoe. I wanna read you, uh, something. Is that okay?

Zoe Harcombe (00:45):

Yeah. Brilliant. Go for it.

Sevan Matossian (00:47):

Okay. I’ve heard countless speakers and read more books on nutrition than anyone. I know. Zoe Harko is that singular voice who speaks from intelligently principled and logically and scientifically. She’s the mother of modern nutritional sciences. Far as I’m concerned. I’ve always enjoyed defending her against the academic peer reviewed epidemiology fraud crowd, Greg Glassman. Greg sent that to me. He, I think he’s pretty excited that you’re coming on the show.

Zoe Harcombe (01:19):

Oh, I thought the question was gonna be who said that? I, I,

Sevan Matossian (01:24):

Sorry, sorry. It’s trivial pursuit, but I, I ask the questions and give you the answers. Just one person.

Zoe Harcombe (01:30):

That’s very good. You’re on your morning coffee.

Sevan Matossian (01:33):

I am. Do you drink coffee?

Zoe Harcombe (01:35):

Oh yeah. One in the morning. And then that’s it. The rest of the

Sevan Matossian (01:37):

Day. That’s it one. Okay. I have one when I wake up, which was, uh, I don’t know, an hour ago. And then, and then, and then another one for the show then I think that’s usually it. I used to be like 10 cups a day. It’s it’s not good for anyone.

Zoe Harcombe (01:51):

Not good. Not good. No, not good.

Sevan Matossian (01:54):

Uh, what time is it where you’re at?

Zoe Harcombe (01:55):

It is three o’clock in the afternoon. Just, uh, yeah. Three o’clock I the, yeah, three o’clock exactly. You’re bang on time. Very good.

Sevan Matossian (02:02):

And, and what country are you in?

Zoe Harcombe (02:04):

I’m in Wales.

Sevan Matossian (02:06):

And is Wales it own country?

Zoe Harcombe (02:09):

Yeah, kind of we’re part of the UK. Um, so the UK as well, Scotland, England, and Northern Ireland. And that’s been very apparent during all of this COVID stuff. Um, so we’ve had separate Corona virus, nonsense acts and various things, but for most of, um, legislation, we are part of the UK. So it’s education and health that is devolved to whale. Um, but it just gets ridiculous. I mean, I’m really near the England border and there were days when you had to do one thing in England and different thing in Wales, and you weren’t supposed to travel in one country. You weren’t supposed to wear a mask in the other country. It’s just been insane. So, um, where an a little country we could fit into most of your us states as is, and it’s just all been nuts.

Sevan Matossian (02:54):

Well, we we’re, we’re in bizarre situations like that too. We’re in places where kids are masks in school and five feet away, their stadiums, um, having the largest boxing matches in the world w indoor, I mean, we, we have all that insanity here. Um, but I, I, I guess I’m asking you if it’s a country and I don’t even know what a country is, I guess like, does, does whales have its own representatives in the UN

Zoe Harcombe (03:15):

Oh gosh, I don’t know.

Sevan Matossian (03:17):

Okay. How about Scotland outta country?

Zoe Harcombe (03:19):

Yeah, but you are, you are asking an interesting thing. So if you took, uh, as an example, EU membership, then it was the UK.

Sevan Matossian (03:26):

OK. So

Zoe Harcombe (03:27):

When the UK left the EU Scotland and Wales left, Scotland didn’t want to leave. I think on balance, Wales did want to leave. So I doubt we would have our own representatives at the UN by that, um, by that logic, I, I think it would count as the UK for that kind of thing.

Sevan Matossian (03:45):

Okay. So it’s, it’s fascinating. Uh, it’s the kind of thing. If I was a 12 year old boy, I’d be making fun of us for it. Those people don’t know whether they’re countries or not, but, but things have gotten a little complicated. Right.

Zoe Harcombe (03:57):

And they have, they’ve got really, and all of this only happened in 1999. So until 1999, we were all one country, good old Tony Blair bless him, or don’t bless him. Um, he decided to offer the country’s devolution, um, to run some of their own regulations and, and how they worked. Um, you are looking it up now, aren’t you? Um, and so in 9 99, approximately 50% of Wales turned out to vote. And approximately 50% of those people voted to have devolution. So only 25% of Wales voted in favor of devolution. The other 75% either voted against or didn’t bother. And we ended up with devolution and quite frankly, it’s a nightmare. I would love to get rid of it and just get back to being the, the whole UK, not necessarily because I like the UK government or what the UK government is doing right now, but it just makes no sense to have four different governing regulations, particularly in terms of health or education. Um, and it’s just gotten nuts over the last two years. It’s just been a mess. So, um,

Sevan Matossian (05:01):

More bureau bureaucracy, more, more money being wasted, more confusion, more, more. Yeah.

Zoe Harcombe (05:07):

And the money we, you know, we created a whole assembly building where they could meet. We have, I don’t know, 60 assembly members who are all on fabulous salaries, six figure salaries, they’ve all then got admins and other people who work for them. We’ve created this whole infrastructure just to look after health and education. And quite frankly, Wales is doing a pretty bad job of it. Um, so we are not performing better than England in health or education. So however bad England is, it’s really difficult to argue that devolution was a good thing for Wales.

Sevan Matossian (05:39):

Yeah. Um, I, sorry to interrupt. I want to, uh, introduce you to some one real quick. Uh, this is, uh, Matt Suza.

Zoe Harcombe (05:45):

I’ve seen him. I did have a look at a couple of your podcast. Hi Matt.

Matthew Souza (05:48):

Hi. How you doing? Wonderful meet

Zoe Harcombe (05:51):

You. I think.

Sevan Matossian (05:52):

And Matt, Matt’s had the honor of hearing you speak live in, um, Santa Cruz, California also. Oh, wow. Yeah. And he, he lived about 70 miles, uh, north of there where he owns a gym called CrossFit Livermore, and Matt was invited to one of the DDCS and then proceeded to sneak into, um, all of the rest of them. He would find out when they were and sneak down there, which is really cool. I think. Yeah.

Zoe Harcombe (06:15):

When, when we were free and we didn’t have masks and all this stuff, that’s been very that’s. I like those days.

Sevan Matossian (06:23):

Um, thanks, Matt. Um, I don’t even know where to start with you. It’s what you, what the, as I dug into you, it’s CRA it’s crazy your background. So you have a bachelor’s you have, you have a bachelor’s in masters, in economics. In math.

Zoe Harcombe (06:37):

Yes.

Sevan Matossian (06:38):

And you have a, uh, a PhD in public nutrition.

Zoe Harcombe (06:42):

Yes. Public health. Nutrition. Yeah.

Sevan Matossian (06:43):

Have you ever thought about running for office?

Zoe Harcombe (06:47):

No. Not in any country. I don’t politics. I think, I think you’ve gotta be a certain kind of person to be in politics. I think you’ve gotta think, you know, what everybody else wants, and then you’ve gotta have the ego that make you think you are the right person to then go ahead and do that. And I’m, I’m not either of those. Um, I’m not so arrogant that I think I know what everyone else wants. So I haven’t got the ego that says, I wanna go and run your lights. I just wanna be left alone. Particularly after these last two years, I, I I’m politically homeless. If any part Said, I’m for freedom. I just leave you alone. I wanna regulate as little as possible. And just let you get on with your life. That’s my, that’s my party. Now there’s left and right. Has gone. It’s not left and right. It’s right and wrong. And I’m done with all the nonsense we’ve got at the moment.

Sevan Matossian (07:32):

Wow. Politically homeless. I’m gonna use that. I’m politically homeless too. You, um, you, you say, you say you’re not, um, uh, uh, arrogance enough to be a politician, but you have this website that’s called Zaria, Zoe har harko.com. And, um, it is a place where you and please correct me. Um, if I’m wrong, it is a place where you take articles, you take publications and you look at them and you show and you put, and you either, uh, validate them or validate them. You poke holes in them. You ask questions about them and you show where they’ve lost their way. Is that correct?

Zoe Harcombe (08:08):

Yeah, pretty much. Um, and I hope it’s not arrogant. I hope it’s just good research. Um, I started doing it over 10 years ago. I’ve done. I it’s something called a Monday note and we’ll get you on it. I, I think you’d really enjoy it. We’ll get you on it straight away. And I, every Monday I send out this note and it takes something topical. So there was something, um, looking at meat and dairy. If you ditch meat and dairy, you’re gonna live 10 years longer or something. So I wanna go and look at the original paper. People haven’t got time to do it. People running cross victory, gyms, nutritionist, lay people, moms, whatever. For doctors academics, they don’t have the time to read it. So I dissect it for them. And then I send them a, um, article, usually two to 3000 words long.

Zoe Harcombe (08:51):

It’s got a summary. That’s just a few hundred words long. So you can go for the really short version or you can go into it in more detail. And I basically unpack it and I say, is the article right? Where did it go wrong? If it’s, if it’s not right. And I have been utterly astonished, there is barely an article out there that you can’t find fault with. Um, and they get through peer review and some of the, the faults are catastrophic. You know, they didn’t adjust for alcohol. Um, in some dietary claim that they’re making that would depend very heavily on alcohol intake or they don’t adjust for activity, or they claim that activity really doesn’t have any impact. Um, it’s just incredible, uh, the, the mistakes that are made, but then they become, go gospel and then they get quoted by other articles.

Zoe Harcombe (09:37):

So people then run around saying, oh, the Siman low carb review that said low carb, you know, have low carb diets and you’re gonna die basically. Um, and then it gets through peer review and it gets in a, in an esteemed journal and it ended up being cited by other people. Um, we’ve got a four in, in one of our clubs and people will chat and it might be at the lay level. Someone’s saying my mother-in-law is giving me grief. Cuz I keep giving my husband red meat. Um, or it might be an academic at an institution who’s trying to write about the nutritional value of red meat who just sees these articles popping up every week, saying red, meat’s gonna kill you. So it can be really different people. But I, I wanna take it apart if it’s right, I’ll say it’s right. Um, you know, the pure study is great. Um, not conflicted came to good conclusions. Couldn’t find much fault with it. Um, but the stuff that’s trying to, red meat, praise, whole grains every week. It’s just not robust.

Sevan Matossian (10:33):

Um, Susie, can you go back to, to the website? Oh this. So if anyone, if you don’t know this website, you should tab this website and you should visit this regularly. And not only to get information from it, that will absolutely change your life and everyone’s life around you. But also there’s this notion out there that people will say, well, I’m educated. So I know, or I’m a doctor I know, or I’m a scientist. And I know, and this clearly shows that that is not true at all. If you cannot think critically, if you cannot ask the right questions, it does not matter how much education you have. Will you click on that article that, uh, JC, uh, VI joint committee on vaccination, immunization, it’s her most recent one.

Sevan Matossian (11:17):

And, and this is, what’s just crazy because we see this in the United States, just everywhere now. And for some reason, people are struggling with it. You see things like, you know, the, the head of Pfizers on the Coca-Cola board and you’re like, wait a second. Uh, the vast majority of people who’ve died in this country have had four Mo more comorbidities and every single obese person that I interview, they, I say, what’s your biggest crutch? And they say soda pop. And I’m like, wow, like how, how is there a relationship with these guys? Yes. And there it is, you, it took you two seconds. It took you two seconds to find it. Um, this, this is an article about people who in a, in a nutshell about people who are supposed to be advising the, um, the UK on policy, it’s supposed to be a non-biased group of people who advise the UK on who should get the vaccine, who should not get the vaccine. It’s supposed to be a, a, a group of like 15 or 16. People are totally unbiased. Well, just with just cursory check, Zoe finds people who, uh, uh, almost all of them are biased. They have some sort of issue. They have some sort of conflict. Not only did they not report it, but one of them, um, failed to declare that he leads the Pfizer vaccine center of excellence.

Zoe Harcombe (12:31):

I shouldn’t love cause

Sevan Matossian (12:32):

It’s, I’m like, like, this is just this, by the way, every article on this website has something like this, where you’re like, well, what’s wrong, what’s wrong. And then you, and then you see this, this, this can’t, this can’t be the person, the person, um, I think we saw Pfizer made 27 or 38 billion in profits. We cannot have them on a committee. That’s advising our to get the shot or to not get the shot. I mean, it it’s, anyone can be bought off for that much money. Is that correct? Zoe

Zoe Harcombe (13:03):

That’s, that’s my view that, that is I, I think, and I kind of have a, a bit of a specialty and conflicts of interest. So I’ve looked at the dietary conflicts of interest in the past and found, for example, I ended up getting a, in the British journal of sports medicine, I found that the public health England had appointed a committee to come up with the role model, healthy eating for the UK. And it was basically a panel of the who’s who of the fake food industry. So it was the food and drink Federation, the in Institute of grocery distribution association of convenience stores, which is kind of like the elevens over in the us. Um, the British nutrition foundation, don’t be fool by the name. That’s also the who’s who of the fake food industries. So if you put together all the organizations that in some way were represented by this panel of about 11 people who were coming up with the eat badly plate, as I called it in the UK, they represented every fake food company you could think, think of from McDonald’s to, um, biscuit companies, whole, um, cereal companies, Kelloggs general mills, um, Costa M ands Sansbury, grocery stores, just everything was represented by these organizations.

Zoe Harcombe (14:11):

And then of course, they come up with this plate that has hardly any meat on it, or facial eggs, um, or Dan dairy products. If there are any dairy products, of course, it’s gotta be low fat dairy, and it’s just all cereals and be stuff and pasta and rice and bread and stuff. That’s gonna make us fat and sick, quite frankly. And, and they then tell us, that’s the role model of healthy eating, and then you get all these other papers. So that’s kind of on the, the food side and then all the stuff I’m looking at for the Monday note, just red meat is bad. Whole grains are good, low fat is good, real fat is bad and all the rest it’s just incessant. They’re just coming at you from all angles. Um, I looked at, we have a committee that’s been advising the government on COVID policy since February, March 20, 20 couple of years ago, um, called Sage.

Zoe Harcombe (14:57):

Um, what does it stand for? Something advisory special, um, special advisory group for emergencies or strategic advisor advisory group, something like that. Um, and again, found out that they had immense conflicts if pharmaceutical companies, vaccine making organizations and their advice to the UK was basically shut yourself. Indoors, just lock everyone inside. Don’t let them come out, close down, public transport, close the schools. Um, just put us into this horrific, unprecedented social experiment for several months and do that until get a vaccine. It’s like we even never had a coronavirus vaccine. We’ve had coronavirus for 55 years. We’ve never had a vaccine. Why would that be? Um, which is what I started researching back in the summer of 2020, but it’s like, no, stay lockdown. And then we’ll get a vaccine and sure enough, not ever having have had one, we suddenly get about 10 it’s like buses.

Zoe Harcombe (15:48):

They all come along at once. Um, and these, these were the ones who said, that’s your playbook shut down, open when you get a, a vaccine. Um, and of course, then we had to shut down again because, um, it didn’t quite go to plan, but they were all conflicted. And so I did the, the conflicts on that one as well. So that’s how I sort of became known to some people in the UK. Who’ve been standing up against all the COVID my, I was saying this isn’t right. And there’s a group that’s since been formed called the together declaration. And, and we’ve had a lot of success since that was formed.

Sevan Matossian (16:19):

You have, you have had success.

Zoe Harcombe (16:22):

Yeah. So, um, if you follow the together declaration on Twitter, um, there’s a phenomenal guy at the head of it, a guy called a Miller, just one of the nicest guys you’d ever meet. If he were only prime minister president of some of the nations around the world, things would be in a much better place right now. Um, and they have a website and they have sort of seven policies. They don’t want mandates is the big thing. We don’t want things mandated. We want freedom for human beings. We want normal back. We wanna go back to the life that we had. Uh, it was, it was good, um, on it for our children and our grandchildren. Um, and things like we had a, a NoJa no job mandate came in in England. Um, interestingly Wales didn’t go for it in Scotland. Didn’t go for it. But Wales in Scotland had different measures that were more draconian. It was real swings and roundabouts.

Sevan Matossian (17:08):

How do you get more draconian than that? How do you get more draconian than no, no jab, no job. Well,

Zoe Harcombe (17:13):

While in were saying no job, no job. Um, they, you were kind of still able to go into outlets in England without showing a COVID pass. Um, whereas in Wales to even get into the cinema there’s together. Brilliant. So Wales to even get in the cinema, you had to show a COVID pass. So I couldn’t go into a local moral theater. Yeah. Um, I forget where else they introduce them. And, and I refuse to use them. I am not having a papers, plea society, so

Sevan Matossian (17:42):

Yeah. And I refuse to lie also, by the way, I’m not gonna lie either and tell you I am vaccinated when I’m not.

Zoe Harcombe (17:47):

Yes. None of anyone’s business. It’s everybody’s health become everybody else’s business. Yep. Um, it has just become astonishing. And just on principle, it doesn’t matter whether you are okay. Sharing personal details or not just as a matter of principle. If, if somebody starts inquiring into your private matters, you should just tell ’em to bugger off it’s none of anyone’s business. Um, so England had gone, no jab, no job. And England fired a lot of healthcare workers. We have a healthcare crisis in England at the moment because they have these amazing people who, many of them locked themselves in care homes. When the peak hit in the UK in March, 2020, they locked themselves in care homes to try not to bring the virus into the care home, to try to protect people. Of course, virus is gonna do what virus is gonna do. And it got into the care homes anyway, and we wiped out more people in care homes and hospitals, people we were trying to protect. We wiped out more of those than in any other situation, almost as if putting people together in a home was really not a very good idea

Sevan Matossian (18:46):

Cause that no, there, there are studies that show that the, the, what the, what characterizes flu season is not the weather that a lot of people think, but it’s because the weather forces people to go inside. And so it, I have you heard that also, and that, and that’s the truth about flu season? The only reason why we have a flu season is because people go inside and that’s when the sickness spreads, but actually season is all year. The flu is always here. It’s always with us, but it spreads because we, because it gets cold and people go inside. And so that the absolute worst thing they could have done the absolute worst thing they could have done during the, this so-called pandemic was to force people inside. Have you heard that narrative? I,

Zoe Harcombe (19:26):

I haven’t, but it, it makes complete sense. Okay. The time when cold flu most spread is Christmas, Christmas, and new year. Um, and that’s when you mix with the most people in an indoor situation, the heating is on, um, heating just helps germ spread as well. And you find a lot of people finish work 20th of December start the Christmas week or two week break. And they’re sick within a couple of, of days of starting that break. And it just happens. And when people say, oh, why does it always happen over Christmas? When I stop working? You could well be right. It’s not that you stop working. It’s that you move from a, um, much more aerated office with desks far further apart to mingling around a party. You know, the kind of parties we used to have when your shoulder to shoulder and no social and you, and you pick up loads of gems really quickly.

Sevan Matossian (20:14):

And, and you eat a lot of junk food, which gives you an insulin spike, which within hours, uh, I believe from what I’ve read, uh, jeopardizes and weakens your immune system within hours,

Zoe Harcombe (20:25):

It could, I don’t, I don’t eat junk food. I, you, you do. We had a joke. Didn’t we, when, when we were together, you always used to be trying to wind me up saying I’m vegan today, or I’m fast in today. And I never knew if you were serious. I know you do many experiments with

Sevan Matossian (20:40):

I’m. I’m experimenting now. I can’t wait to tell you what I’m experimenting. I can’t wait to

Zoe Harcombe (20:46):

Stop it.

Sevan Matossian (20:47):

I can’t, I

Zoe Harcombe (20:48):

Eat normal every day.

Sevan Matossian (20:50):

I, um, I’ve been eating raw meat

Zoe Harcombe (20:53):

For,

Sevan Matossian (20:53):

Okay. For, for a week, I’ve been eating raw meat. So basically I wake up, I take a pound of ground beef. I blend it with a third cube of butter. I add some salt to it. And then throughout the day I eat that. And then I also sprinkling some avocados and then, um, occasionally some leafy greens and that, and I’ve been doing that for a week. And then I, and I mix it with honey sometimes. And a, and actually I did it for like seven days straight and I started justifying it. You ready for this? Because, um, let me ask you this first. Is there any truth that eating red, that eating, um, meat that has carcinogens in it and red meat?

Zoe Harcombe (21:30):

No, no,

Sevan Matossian (21:31):

No truth in that

Zoe Harcombe (21:32):

Thing, if you put red meat and cancer in, on my site, that’s one of the things that I just, I just dispel so many times it makes no

Sevan Matossian (21:39):

Sense. And I saw that and, and the ones I read are fantastic, by the way, I read three of ’em last night, F fantastic.

Zoe Harcombe (21:44):

True. The, I, you know what, um, Peter Cleve say, or something surgeon caps, the idea that an, an ancient food is responsible for modern illness is

Sevan Matossian (21:53):

Will you say that one more time? That is brilliant. It

Zoe Harcombe (21:55):

Is, is, is, uh, Peter Thomas Cleve. I think he was, he was a surgeon captain in the British admir or whatever. And one of his most famous quotes was for an ancient food to be, um, responsible for modern disease is quite the most absurd thing I ever heard. And it is our most ancestral food. It’s the thing that we first started eating at the point that we started really developing as homo sapien. So, you know, the ice age was supposed to be 30,000 years long end in about 10,000 years ago. During that period of time, we really would not have had much access to plants. And that’s the time when we most evolved. So allegedly we went from Neanderthal to practically rocket scientist on meat and, and non plant food. And those fats fuel in our brain.

Sevan Matossian (22:38):

So the justification I gave was is that okay? So these must have carcinogens in them when they’re heated up, that’s what must damage the food and give people cancer. And so I’m gonna just start eating it, it raw. Tell me how, tell me how flawed my thinking is.

Zoe Harcombe (22:53):

Well,

Sevan Matossian (22:53):

I don’t cause I’m tired of eating raw meat after a week. I

Zoe Harcombe (22:56):

Can’t understand why you’re doing it. I, I don’t think eating cook meat is a problem. So again, there’s some, I, I can’t even pronounce it, but I looked at something once aide or something where they say, oh, you mustn’t have burnt toast because the, the burning is a really bad thing. So I’m thinking all those cavemen sat around the fire and then they put the meat, cuz we discovered fire what 350,000 years ago, 500,000 years ago, that kind of timeframe a long time ago in terms of the evolution of food. Can you really imagine the cavemen say, oh no, no, no, be careful. Don’t put the meat in the fire. It get all nice and crispy and you know, off those really well done bits, but you know, it’s gonna give us cancer. I mean, it’s just insane. The stuff that we believe at the moment we think that the, the food we’ve been eating for the longest time is gonna cause us harm. And then somehow these cereals and low fat yogurts made by Kelloggs and Dan are somehow good for us. Um, how stupid do you have to be that someone has convinced you of that? I mean,

Sevan Matossian (23:55):

You,

Zoe Harcombe (23:56):

You were never convinced of that for yourself.

Sevan Matossian (23:59):

You, you will be very proud of me. This I have, I did use, um, uh, you know, obviously hanging around Greg for 15 years every single day. Um, and, and the stop eating added sugar and refined carbohydrates after over 15 years, I just, I just marched in that direction constantly nonstop. And about two years ago, I’d say about two years ago. I, um, I used Paul Sal Dino’s, um, carnivore diet. I ran across that and I decided, okay, I’ll, I’ll allow myself to eat as much meat and hard cheese as I can, uh, for two weeks. And I did that and basically that broke me of all sugar, all added sugar. And since then, and it’s the best I’ve ever felt my entire life. I basically for the last year and a half, two years, except for an occasional drink or something, you know, just occasionally I will have no, uh, uh, added sugar refined carbohydrates.

Sevan Matossian (24:50):

And I just use that meat diet, you know, as kind of like a mental thing, just the all meat diet, cuz then I could eat anything I want. Um, you said, you said something in an interview where you said you were used to be by, by the way she has what, even better credentials than, uh, a, a degree, um, from Cambridge in math, economics and a PhD in public nutrition. She’s a 20 year vegetarian. She worked at Mars and um, and, and she worked in one of the, she also was, uh, you were head of HR for some company.

Zoe Harcombe (25:22):

Yeah. A drug company, if you wanna really get it out there. Okay. I went from fake food to fake drugs as well.

Sevan Matossian (25:27):

Yeah. So she, she worked in with big pharma. She worked for Mars. Uh, she was a 20 year vegetarian. And the reason why that’s so important is because when you see these, when you work in these places, you see the mischaracterization of things. I’m reading this book right now by a man named, um, Patrick, that David Suza. What was the name of that book? Five, five, thinking five moves ahead, five. Your, what was it?

Matthew Souza (25:52):

Your next five moves.

Sevan Matossian (25:53):

It’s a big, your next five moves. Yeah. And one of the things in that book he says is when you’re trying to solve a problem, don’t confuse the issue with the symptom. And so, so like, like people think people are dying of COVID now that that is not what’s happening. That is the symptom. The issue is, is that we’re in a tsunami of chronic disease, but unfortunately our scientists are so stupid. And I, and I mean that in, in, in the most sincere sense I can, that they’re trying to solve the symptom and, and that and that. And, and so, so that they’re never gonna win. And the same thing is true. Um, when you, when you call people have a homeless problem in this country, but that’s the symptom, the issue is drug addicts. So we have this massive economy that’s trying to solve our homeless problem, but that is not the issue. It’s like, someone’s poor. And you give them money because you think being poor is the issue. No, that’s the symptom. The issue is they don’t have a job. So it doesn’t matter how much money you give them. Yeah. They, they, it’s gonna be gone in a second. You, you can’t. And when you have someone like Zoe, who has this other experience, she’s not gonna fall for the mischaracterization of I, of, of the re ill issues. She, she she’s, she, it’s not, um, it’s not, uh, she’s not gonna fall for low fat.

Zoe Harcombe (27:11):

I didn’t even as veggie. I mean, veggies actually, um, they, they can easily get more calories. I don’t care about calories, but they can easily get more calories than meat eaters. Um, I would go to black tie. I dos and the person next to me would be like,

Sevan Matossian (27:24):

You would go to what

Zoe Harcombe (27:26):

Black tie dos they’re called. So, um, posh dos, when you dress up, you wear a ball gown or a cocktail dress or something. Ah, I was on the boards of a couple of organizations. So I was on the board of the national health service in Wales. So I do know something about the health service. Um, and I was on the board of a university in Wales card of metropolitan. Um, and we used to have all these functions when dignitaries would come over. So you’d be at black TIS and you’d have a really fancy dinner. Um, and sometimes it would be several courses. And I would quite often look, cuz I was interested in food that the person who wasn’t veggie was getting a much healthier meal than I was getting. Um, and they would have a nice piece of chicken. Usually chicken is served at those dinners cuz it’s a safe, non red, non fish kind of thing.

Zoe Harcombe (28:11):

Um, and I would get some enormous pie or pizza or something. So I’m in this, you know, nice little cocktail dress and I’m just feeling as the evening goes wrong, I dress just feeling tighter and tight. These carbs are going in. You know, you’d have some carve start. I mean, and that’s the thing with vegetarians because the only foods that have zero carbohydrate content are, are pretty much meat and fish eggs have got a trace dairy products. It starts to add up, you’ll know all of this having been carni, but for a vegetarian and particularly for a vegan, everything you’re eating has got a carbohydrate content. So you end up having a whopping carbohydrate intake because that’s the food that you eat. Um, and it was that kind of thing that got me really interested in food. So I would look at things like, well, how does nature provide food?

Zoe Harcombe (29:00): And then you realize that nature actually provides foods that vegans don’t eat, which is the healthy stuff, which is a meat, fish, eggs and dairy. And those are your animal based foods, but they are, um, what I call fat proteins. So they’ve got a trace of carbohydrate, but essentially they’re fat and protein. And then you’ve got the things that vegans do eat and their car proteins. And they’re the grains, fruits, vegetables, legumes. Um, again, they have a trace of fat, but they’re predominant carbohydrate protein. And then you just think that’s really interesting nature. Just doesn’t put all the macronutrients together. It’s really rare that it does. And when it does, it’s things like avocados, which is why I smiled. When you were saying what you were eating, um, avocados, nuts and seeds are essentially the only things. And then you look at a human being with a bag of nuts, especially one who’s come off fake foods. So they’ve managed to overcome the sugar addiction and the white flour addiction and you give them a bag of nuts and they can’t stop. It becomes the new crave food that they can’t resist. Yes. And.

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