Sevan Matossian (00:02):
Ba, we’re live. Good morning. Good morning, rambler. Hey, what’s up? Second? Still Podium. Who’s first? How do you know you’re not first? Hannah, welcome. Awesome. Wow. My first time making it before livestream starts, after watching every show for over a year. You did it. Yeah. What’s up? You got a picture early, Omar? What’s up, dude? Asymmetric present. Good to see you
David Sutcliffe (00:29):
All. This
Sevan Matossian (00:29):
Guy we’re having on today is cool as shit. I hope I don’t screw this one up. And by screw up specifically, I mean, I hope I can keep asking him questions and I don’t fall victim to my own self-interest in asking questions about myself. Oh, look. And the self-help book is here too. God, I love it. You’re going to love this. I’m going to dedicate this show to you, girl. What’s up, David?
David Sutcliffe (01:00):
How you doing,
Sevan Matossian (01:01):
Dude? Living the dream, buddy. Living the dream.
David Sutcliffe (01:05):
We’re live.
Sevan Matossian (01:06):
Yeah.
David Sutcliffe (01:07):
Nice.
Sevan Matossian (01:09):
Hey, thanks for doing this.
David Sutcliffe (01:10):
Thanks for having me.
Sevan Matossian (01:14):
I watched your podcast with Danny, and I watched your podcast with Zubie, and I watched your interview with Tate, the part two all yesterday. I had the David, what did we used to do in high school? Cram, we crammed.
David Sutcliffe (01:33):
Right, right, right. You binged.
Sevan Matossian (01:36):
Yeah. It turned into binging in college. In high school, it was still cramming.
David Sutcliffe (01:41):
No Gilmore Girls. You didn’t watch any Gilmore Girls.
Sevan Matossian (01:44):
But I studied some Gilmore Girls Wikipedia stuff, and I watched some red carpet videos.
David Sutcliffe (01:50):
Nice.
Sevan Matossian (01:51):
And
David Sutcliffe (01:51):
I liked all that stuff.
Sevan Matossian (01:55):
Hey dude, I am born in Oakland, California, raised to two lovely, do-gooder, Democrat, liberal parents, a tree hug, do what’s best for the world. And somewhere along on the journey, I ran into a libertarian and just a whole journey. Eventually I came to a point where I started viewing LA as like a hive. I started jokingly calling it a hive.
David Sutcliffe (02:29):
Yeah.
Sevan Matossian (02:30):
And I’m so impressed at your journey. Are you in LA still?
David Sutcliffe (02:36):
I’m in Austin, Texas.
Sevan Matossian (02:38):
Oh, right, okay. All right. Alright.
David Sutcliffe (02:41):
Had to get out.
Sevan Matossian (02:43):
I’ve been very defensive lately about people leaving California this thing. Why the fuck are you still in California? I’m like, because I’m not a coward. I’m not one of those pussies who’s moving to Florida or Texas,
David Sutcliffe (02:52):
And I respect that,
Sevan Matossian (02:54):
But I don’t really mean it. I’m just being defensive.
David Sutcliffe (02:56):
Well, somebody’s got to stay in fight.
Sevan Matossian (02:59):
Oh my goodness. What a journey you’ve been on, dude.
David Sutcliffe (03:01):
Yeah, it’s been quite a journey and on many levels. But yeah, I got out of LA well when I switched careers because when you’re an actor, which I was for 20 plus years, you got to be in la. There’s nowhere else you can be. I mean, I spent a little time in Toronto, Vancouver. I’m from Toronto, but really, you got to be in la. And so when I officially retired, it was the first time where I thought, wait, I don’t have to live in la. I could live anywhere right now. And I moved to the mountains, Idlewild, California for a year and a half in transit.
Sevan Matossian (03:35):
Did you get into math up there? Did you get into math?
David Sutcliffe (03:37):
I did not get into math. The meth scene isn’t as bad in Idlewild, I think, as it is in some of the other mountain towns nearby. But I loved it up there. I want to live in the mountains. I was like, where do I want to live? I was like, I want to live in the mountains. I grew up around mountains, but then it was a little too isolating. So yeah, I had to move to Austin, Texas. I’ve been here for two and a half years and I love it. I love Texas. I love the people friendly. Austin’s a great city and a lot of energy, a lot of youthful exuberance and optimism. So it’s a good place to be for me right now.
Sevan Matossian (04:18):
Was there any component of chasing a woman to Austin, or did you already have the woman?
David Sutcliffe (04:25):
Well, it’s funny you say that. I didn’t have a woman. I was dating somebody who was living in Los Angeles when I was up in Idlewild, but it was kind of casual, let’s say. And then when I moved to Austin, she moved back to Miami because she also wanted to get out of la and I thought, that’s a good woman. I don’t want to let her get away. I’m getting old. And so we’ve been dating ever since. We got engaged in August, getting married in April, and she’s now living with me in Austin.
Sevan Matossian (04:59):
Is this your first marriage?
David Sutcliffe (05:01):
I was married, when was it? 2001. I got married very briefly to a Playboy Playmate at the Cool Tropicana Hotel in Vegas. It was an on again, off, again, tumultuous relationship. And I guess I thought we could solve it if we got married that lasted four months. And God love her. She was a good woman, but we were, I don’t know what we were doing, playing. Well, that’s actually the thing that really got me into therapy. I mean, I realized I had, it made a disastrous mistake, and I started to wonder how did that happen? How did I make that mistake? How was I deluding myself so badly? And yeah, that really began my serious journey of self-inquiry and trying to figure out what the hell was going on for me.
Sevan Matossian (05:55):
Do you have kids?
David Sutcliffe (05:56):
I don’t have kids.
Sevan Matossian (05:57):
And how old are you?
David Sutcliffe (05:59):
54.
Sevan Matossian (06:01):
Oh, dang. Dude, you look good.
David Sutcliffe (06:02):
Thank you. Wow. Yeah. I
Sevan Matossian (06:05):
Noticed you have this thing going that I’m 51. I thought for sure you were younger than me. I thought you were 44, but the beard made you look like maybe you were 50. But I have this, if I grow my beard one more inch, I’ll turn into 72 inches. And I’m like, people are like, dude, I got a casket. I want to sell you.
David Sutcliffe (06:23):
Well, I keep the beard because when I shave it, I look a little baby faced, which is good on one level, but working in the profession that I’m in, the beard gives me a little gravitas, a little power. People take me more seriously.
Sevan Matossian (06:40):
I agree. So
David Sutcliffe (06:41):
I use it. I work with it.
Sevan Matossian (06:44):
It’s kind of like I was big into photography for a long time. I still am, but you can get away with murder the older you are. Like you point a camera at a gang banger at 18, he shoots you dead at 50 with a scruffy beard he poses for
David Sutcliffe (06:59):
You. You want me to put
Sevan Matossian (07:00):
My GA over here or my GA
David Sutcliffe (07:01):
Over here? You
Sevan Matossian (07:02):
Know what I mean? It’s so true. It’s so true. Awesome.
David Sutcliffe (07:04):
Because everybody’s unconsciously or everybody’s daddy.
Sevan Matossian (07:08):
Oh, okay.
David Sutcliffe (07:09):
I think. And so when I walk into a room, I have a dad vibe whether people are conscious of it or not. And so there’s a certain respect that gets afforded to you or hatred, depending on the person.
Sevan Matossian (07:27):
You, I’m totally open to you not feeling comfortable with this next question, and I get it because made it clear that you’re not a shit talker in your videos. But do you have any thoughts on your Danny Morrell interview? Did you ever go back and watch that?
David Sutcliffe (07:45):
Yeah, I watched it.
Sevan Matossian (07:47):
Did you, did anything jump out at you about that in particular? I know I’m asking you a loaded question. I know I’m
David Sutcliffe (07:53):
Leading you. No, I’m assuming something jumped out at you.
Sevan Matossian (07:58):
It’s so different. This is not the point of this interview, but I just can’t resist. It’s so different than Zubie. Zubie is so grounded. He’s asking you to define words. You’re not dealing, not a therapist. So I don’t know what the words are, but Andrew spends the entire, I’m speaking in hyperbole, spends the entire interview telling you he’s not a coward. And Morell’s telling you the whole interview, how authentic he is, and he’s convincing you and manipulating you to convince you that you have this authentic relationship from the beginning to the end. I want to say almost nothing objective has said that entire interview. It’s like I just like, Hey, can we just pull one balloon down and talk about it? Where Zubie iss like, I need you to, I come from that place that Morrell was at, but I’m now where Zubie iss at, meaning I need things defined.
David Sutcliffe (08:58):
I understand.
Sevan Matossian (08:59):
I’m not letting authentic be your true self. Go fuck yourself no fucking way.
David Sutcliffe (09:06):
I understand.
Sevan Matossian (09:07):
Am I doing that? But it was just a trip. I mean, you navigated both beautifully.
David Sutcliffe (09:12):
Thank you.
Sevan Matossian (09:16):
But do you have any thoughts on what I’m referencing?
David Sutcliffe (09:22):
I can understand your perspective certainly. And I think I know what you mean. Here’s the thing I’ll say about Danny Morell. He puts his money where his mouth is. I was like, is this guy for real? He was coming off very friendly and connecting, but you know what? Now we’re good friends. He’s given me a lot of opportunity now. He brought me on just out of pure instinct to work at some of his events, and he’s very generous and friendly. So there’s something, I don’t know, a fantastic judge of character. I like Danny.
Sevan Matossian (10:03):
Yeah, okay.
David Sutcliffe (10:04):
But I can understand how one would see him as, I dunno, superficial is the right word at first glance, but I actually
Sevan Matossian (10:16):
Think he’s or purveyor of miscommunication in order to kind of get to some lowest common denominator with someone instead of he really wants things to be good. One of his lines is he uses a lot is we both love that kind of dog, and we haven’t defined what love is. We don’t even know if you have a dog. We don’t know what dog he’s referencing. I wish I could think of an exact line, but there was this always including the two of you from the beginning in this. And I was like, wow, this is, but I saw a ton of myself in that. I was like, wow. That’s how I used to be. You want to make people feel good. You want to bond. He’s excited to bond with people.
David Sutcliffe (10:55):
Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, I don’t want to say too much. I’m friends with Danny. I love
Sevan Matossian (11:01):
Danny.
David Sutcliffe (11:02):
Danny’s a good dude, but I hear you. I could see how one would take that stance.
Sevan Matossian (11:08):
And Zubie was just drilling down.
David Sutcliffe (11:12):
Yeah. Zubie has got a gift for asking very, what sound like simple questions, but are actually very complex. I think that is his gift. Even on Twitter, he says these things that when you read them, they feel obvious or self-evident, and yet you haven’t quite heard it that way before. And it really lands. He’s really got a gift for communication.
Sevan Matossian (11:40):
When I see what he writes, I’m always like, why didn’t I write that?
David Sutcliffe (11:44):
Exactly.
Sevan Matossian (11:45):
Wait so many times. Yeah. And it’s clear and it’s concise. How did you meet him?
David Sutcliffe (11:54):
I don’t know. We were following each other on Twitter for a while, and he just put out a notice saying he had some guest cancel for his podcast and would anyone like to come on? So I was like, yeah, man, I want to come on your podcast. It was really that simple. And yeah, it happened in 24 hours, maybe even the same day. So it was quick. But I think he doesn’t know that much about me. But again, that’s good. That was good. So he found out during the interview, I like that I
Sevan Matossian (12:29):
Asked if you had kids, because there’s this piece of me that cares that because I have kids, maybe I care about the future. If I didn’t have kids, I’d like, fuck bring Armageddon on. What do I care? I’ll move into an RV and get some guns and just watch the thing and some girls and watch the thing from afar. But I have kids and I care. Do you know why you care? Do you care?
David Sutcliffe (13:00):
Do I care about, seems like you care
Sevan Matossian (13:02):
About the outcome, the future of humanity, civilization. Yeah.
David Sutcliffe (13:06):
Well, I think we’re in a fight of good versus evil right now. I think it’s very clear to me that that’s what’s going on. And I want to be on the side of good, and I like the fight. It is asking new things of me. I mean, my generation, and I guess we’re in the same generation. Gen X, we didn’t really grow up with much conflict. I guess nine 11 was the first real shock, and I think about 30 at the time. But now we’re engaged in what I feel is an existential crisis, some kind of civil war, spiritual war. I think we’ll end up in a literal world war. And it’s sad, it’s depressing, it’s scary. But at the same time, it’s exciting because asking us to get strong and find some internal fortitude. And so aspects of myself that I think have been dormant or may have come out in sports or in business in different ways, but this is different. This is real. And so I’m into it. As I said, it’s scary, but I like to fight. And I like who I’m becoming in relationship to what’s happening.
Sevan Matossian (14:26):
Oh, yeah. I liked the way you said that. You like what you’re turning into.
David Sutcliffe (14:31):
Yeah, well, it’s brought me closer to God,
(14:37):
And that feels really good. And now I really understand, I mean, as much as I can, the power of God and the reason that it’s important to believe in God and have a relationship with God. I understand God is a loaded word, and people define it in different ways, but it’s driven me to God, and it’s made me much more diligent about how I live and what I think and how I interact with other people, the things that I’m doing. I’m much more intentional, conscientious, and it feels like I’m on a mission and being on a mission feels really good.
Sevan Matossian (15:26):
Yeah. You’re on a mission fully. I’m going to try a new metaphor for you that I haven’t used before. We all have a hand, and most people fill their hand with something, and our right hand is what carries God in this illustration I’m going to give you. And so some people think because they’re holding onto C N N, they’re not holding onto God, but they don’t realize the truth is that everything that is in this hand that you’ve grabbed with this hand is your God,
David Sutcliffe (16:01):
The
Sevan Matossian (16:01):
Sake of this. So some people have grabbed their mom, some people have grabbed their dad, some people have grabbed the Bible, some people have grabbed C n N, but they’re holding in just the nature, the objective nature of who we are. Whatever’s in this hand, let’s say is God. For the sake of this argument,
David Sutcliffe (16:18):
I’m with you.
Sevan Matossian (16:20):
I personally prefer, I personally, from my perspective, is if the goal to be with God is not to pick anything up with his hand,
David Sutcliffe (16:28):
Interesting.
Sevan Matossian (16:29):
Just sit right in the unknown. Just have it open like this.
David Sutcliffe (16:32):
I love that
Sevan Matossian (16:35):
The people who grabbed the Bible, they know that they’ve grabbed a God and whether it’s a real God or a fake God, they know that they’ve grabbed it this other side that some people call evil, because I’m really trying to understand what evil is, because I really just don’t believe in evil. So when you say there’s a battle between good and evil, I struggle with it.
David Sutcliffe (16:54):
Separation from God,
Sevan Matossian (16:56):
Understanding these people that we’re calling evil, they’re in a really weird situation because they’ve grabbed something that’s their God, but they still say they don’t believe in God, but the nature of their being is they have this thing that turns, if any of us grab it, it turns it into our God.
David Sutcliffe (17:16):
Well, they’re worshiping something
Sevan Matossian (17:19):
And they don’t know that. I didn’t know I was worshiping something.
David Sutcliffe (17:23):
Yeah, you’re worshiping money. You’re worshiping social justice, b l m, whatever, something, sex,
Sevan Matossian (17:32):
White knighting protecting something.
David Sutcliffe (17:34):
Absolutely. You become identified with something. You believe that you are good, but if it’s not God, if it’s not something that’s bigger than you, and I understand people would say that BBL M and these other things feel like it’s bigger than them, and it does satisfy that. But it’s a social movement. And if you’re believing in something that is on this plane of existence and that becomes your God, you are going to become corrupted. It’s just that simple.
Sevan Matossian (18:02):
So if your god’s on this plane, would that be a component of evil?
David Sutcliffe (18:05):
It’s a false God. It’s a false God. And if you’re believing in a false God, you are eventually going to fall prey to evil. You’re going to start to act in evil ways. I think. Listen, most people think about evil as, I have this evil plot and I’m going to execute it. But I think largely evil is perpetuated unconsciously and often in the name of good. But it’s a rationalization. I mean, all of us have unconscious rage from the places that we were hurt as a child. And there’s a part of all of us that wants to get revenge, wants to punish. That’s why revenge movies are so fun to watch. It’s like exercise is that part of ourselves. We feel deep satisfaction in that, but all of that lives in the unconscious. So what we do is we attach ourselves to some quote unquote noble cause bond with other people, create an enemy, and then because we’re good and they’re bad, we can rationalize anything to destroy them. And that’s evil. That’s how it works. I mean, that’s my definition and my framework. Obviously, there’s many ways to talk about it, but that’s how I think about it.
Sevan Matossian (19:22):
I think it was in the conversation you were having with Zubie, you were digging into something that is the most fascinating component of all of this to me, is rationalizing, bringing, understanding to things that frankly, I don’t understand. So two plus two is four, and that’s racist because there’s only one answer. And then I’m like, okay, I want to understand what you’re saying. I want to understand how it’s racist. There’s only one answer. But you’re saying that anywhere there’s only one answer. I can’t make the leaps. I’m not making the leaps. And I think you were explaining to Zubie how that kind of rationalization occurs. Does that ring a bell with you, or do you have any thoughts on that? How people make these leaps of rationalization that are,
David Sutcliffe (20:15):
Well,
Sevan Matossian (20:16):
Those of us who think we’re being logical can’t make
David Sutcliffe (20:19):
Yeah. Again, in that, I think there’s something subversive in it. I’ve spent the last, I dunno, 15, 20 years studying psychology co energetics. That’s what I’m trained in. It’s a somatic psychotherapy, and it’s based on the work of Alexander Lowen bioenergetics and on a series of lectures called the Pathwork lectures, which were this channeled group of lectures.
Sevan Matossian (20:48):
Are those on YouTube?
David Sutcliffe (20:49):
Not on YouTube, but they’re online past work lectures. They’re incredible. They’re a little bit difficult to read at first, but once you get them, yeah, they’re, they’re really powerful. And they have a framework, higher self, which we all know, lower self mask, but the lower self, it’s that part of us that is capable of evil, and it’s inside all of us, and it hides from us. We don’t want to know it, obviously, but it seeks expression when it begins to come out, we rationalize it. We create a story in our mind to rationalize our bad behavior. As I said, you’ll make somebody else the enemy, you’ll make yourself good. That’s the story you’re telling yourself. And in that place, you can rationalize everything. I mean, you’re seeing it right now with what they’re doing to Trump, right? It’s just like they’ve made him into Hitler.
(21:53):
What do you think is going to happen if you label somebody Hitler and all his followers racist? Well, I said this very early on Facebook back in 2015, and all my friends went crazy. I said, you can’t do that. It’s a very fucking dangerous thing to do because once you label somebody Hitler, then you can rationalize doing anything to stop Hitler. Oh, wow. And so you can see the setup in that the people who are actually labeling them as Hitler, they have this evil inside them. They have this aggression. They have this rage that wants to be expressed. It’s all about pain from their childhood. It’s unresolved pain from their childhood. It’s just a defense. And we all got hurt in childhood. I mean, you could talk about it as trauma, whatever. Everybody has this, right? I mean, just look out in the world. Look at all the cruelty, all the evil, the murder that’s going on all over the world, all the corruption.
(22:45):
Well, it’s in us. And so for me, really, the work that I do is coming to terms with that part of us to know that that part of lives inside everyone, and it lives inside me. And if I don’t come in a relationship with it, if I don’t know the part of me that’s capable of it, it’s likely almost certain that I’m going to act out on it in some way. Now, am I going to go hit somebody over the head? Probably not. But am I going to punish my fiance when we’re in an argument by withdrawing and pulling away my love so that she will suffer because I feel like she’s hurt me? Yeah, I’m probably going to do that. That’s cruelty. And we don’t want to take responsibility for it. We want to project it onto somebody else. You did this to me, or You’re doing this, therefore, I have the right to do this back to you. In that moment, you’re abdicating any sense of self responsibility. It’s just a free for all, and it’s dangerous. And you see it going on all over the place. And this is why it’s so attractive to make yourself a victim. Once you’re a victim, you can rationalize anything. Well, I’ve been victimized, and it happens every time the victim becomes the perpetrator. And this cycle continues
Sevan Matossian (24:05):
Everywhere I looked. And let’s say, I’ll back down from that a little bit. 99% of where I looked, the person who’s pointing at someone is racist. It’s so obvious to me they’re the racist.
David Sutcliffe (24:16):
Yes.
Sevan Matossian (24:17):
It’s like, wow, you had to come up with that because you were racist. That’s the only way you saw that. You made that up in your head that I don’t see that out here.
David Sutcliffe (24:26):
It’s projection.
Sevan Matossian (24:27):
Yeah.
David Sutcliffe (24:28):
Yeah. I mean, they’re not racist in the way that they’re accusing other people of, listen, our brains are racist. Our brains categorize. Your mind can’t not do that. And I think a lot of people feel shame about that. They feel like, oh, if I’m categorizing people based on the color of their skin, which you can’t not do,
Sevan Matossian (24:52):
Because
David Sutcliffe (24:52):
The brain is a pattern recognition machine, they feel shame about that somehow or that somehow makes them bad. And so then they need to project the shame that they feel about that onto other people. But the truth is, we’re all racist in some sense. And I think the way out of it, the way of anything is to come into awareness of that aspect of you. Don’t judge it. Just be curious about it
Sevan Matossian (25:21):
And
David Sutcliffe (25:21):
Then try to mitigate against it. Because if you’re conscious of how you’re thinking and what you’re thinking, it’s much more easy. It’s easier to control your mind or control your actions in response to it. But if it stays in the unconscious, you’re going to act out on it somehow some way eventually. Does that make sense?
Sevan Matossian (25:45):
Yeah. Yeah. It’s interesting. I was thinking about cause and effect and blame. Cause and effect are just the realities, I guess, of physics and blame is the narrative behind it, instead of just leaving it at cause and effect. You go straight, you add a story to it. I blame that person. So it’s not that car hit me and now I have a dent in my car. I blame that person for whatever reason.
David Sutcliffe (26:10):
Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think Brene Brown says that. She says it well, blame is a discharge of anger and frustration. I don’t want to feel my pain. I don’t want to feel that. Here’s the thing, life just is right. There’s no right or wrong to it. On one level of reality, there’s no right or wrong. There’s light and dark and things happen, and life is not fair. And it just is. And if you can live in the isness of it, you’re going to have a lot more peace. Then you’re just accepting everything as it is. And so if you get in a car accident, somebody rear ends you, that just happened. Is it somebody’s fault? Well, on one level, yes, it’s somebody’s fault, but on another level, it just happened. And if you can be in the place of this just happened, you’re more likely to be in a place of acceptance. But life is also painful. There’s no way around that. And you’re going to suffer and you’re going to face tragedy, and you’re going to fail, and you’re going to be betrayed. And all of these things are painful. And in some way, we’ve been told that we shouldn’t expect that from life. That’s wrong. And it’s just not
(27:20):
True. So of course, if that’s your mental model, you have to blame somebody else for your pain. And I understand the impulse of course. And sometimes you have a right to express your anger and your frustration if you’ve been betrayed, of course. But ultimately, you have to bring it back to yourself. I mean, it just is. And this is painful, and it’s my responsibility to be with and feel my pain. That’s the only way out of it. Staying attached to judgment and blame. Well then you’re a slave to your emotions. And at the effect of the world, you’re just bouncing around without any sovereignty.
Sevan Matossian (28:09):
I’ve said this to people before too. Hey, I’m not racist. You’re racist. I accept you for being racist. I accept you. It’s okay. It it’s fine. I get it. There was a home invasion robbery. It was five Chinese guys, and now you’re upset at Chinese people. I get it. I ain’t mad at you for that.
David Sutcliffe (28:25):
Of course,
Sevan Matossian (28:26):
I’m here for you. I help you work through that shit. Cool. It’s good. But don’t think that I hate Chinese people. Don’t put that on me. I’m cool. I like chopsticks and rice and all that shit. Motorcycles. What about, are you familiar with Eckhart Tole?
David Sutcliffe (28:43):
Sure.
Sevan Matossian (28:47):
He, going back to where we originally started the conversation, this gentleman has an unbelievable gift at saying nothing but pointing at the unknown the least he calls it, not nothing, but no thing. And he writes book after book, pointing at this thing, this no thing. And I’m completely in love with that ability. This guy does it too. The da de ching Latu does it. He is just like, Hey, look at that. And everyone’s like, I don’t see nothing. He’s like, that’s what I’m talking about. Yeah. This guy. Thoughts on Mr. Tole? Are you a fan?
David Sutcliffe (29:30):
Yeah. A new Earth. I listened to that on. Well, yeah.
Sevan Matossian (29:37):
Whenever you say, I listen to it one more time than you.
David Sutcliffe (29:41):
Well, every couple of years I play. It’s just, I mean, I’ve read the Power of Now. I haven’t read these other books. Oh, I was in the movie Milton’s Secret. They made a movie out of that, and I was in that. I didn’t get to meet him though. Unfortunately.
Sevan Matossian (29:56):
I don’t know that story.
David Sutcliffe (29:59):
Yeah.
The above transcript is generated using AI technology and therefore may contain errors.
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